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Matt Jackson View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Feb 05 at 10:50am

Originally posted by redback

We'll have to measure it to setle this one.

Firstly, the picture is Mark's Contender, this is mine and the kicker is atached to a flippin big u-bolt through the mast.

Secondly, I might have the answer - assuming I've understood the question: When I step the mast I attach the forstay, heave the mast onto the step, and attach the looseish lowers. Then I attach the halyard to the outhaul and bang on loads of kicker which 'lengthens' the shrouds and lets me pin them in low enough to get the the rig tension I need (I'm quite big), far lower than I could manage just pulling on the trapeze handle.

From this I deduce that pulling on kicker bends the mast shortening the distance between hound and chain plates and also pulls the mast back because of the control lines being lead back (nothing to do with where the cascade it attached).



Edited by Matt Jackson
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Twin Poles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Twin Poles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 05 at 12:59pm

I think Matt has given us an answer there, but i still think if the anchored point was further back the effect would be increased further as the mast rotates in the mast step as well as bending. It would also be interesting to see the extent of this when using a sail rather than a static rope, as i feel the reason this has not been documented much (well not anywhere i've seen), is because the forces will be neglilible.

If my name ended in Bethwaite i might be able to investigate this with several test boats and rigs and come up with a very firm conclusion, probably with several different types of graph. Unfortunatly i dont have time, money, or expertise so i guess i'll have to leave it up guys, but if anyone does get any figues i would be interested in seeing them.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 05 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Twin Poles

I think Matt has given us an answer there, but i still think if the anchored point was further back the effect would be increased further as the mast rotates in the mast step as well as bending.

Hmm, if your mast rotates in the step on a Contender you are (or soon will be) in a bit of bother.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Twin Poles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 5:56pm

True, what i meant to say was attemping to rotate, i'd hope (for your sake) the forestay would stop the mast falling down.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 6:24pm

OK, I thought you meant rotate like a wing mast. You mean the tip rotating about the heel, backwards towards the cockpit, yeah? In which case I agree the bending force would be added to by a rotational one but we're only talking about the forestay being under more tension.

Isn't that where you came in?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Twin Poles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 7:19pm

Yeah that is what i meant by rotation (communications never been a good point of mine).

So this "rotational" force would surley increase forestay tension, which is about where i came in, I think?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 8:16am

Yes, I believe you're right. Not sure what effect that has on my particular class but the shrouds going slack is a bigger potential problem. Can't remember the process in detail but as the wind increases, and I go out on the wire, the rig depowers itself and I have to come back in - somewhat frustrating hence the high rig tension.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 8:53am
Originally posted by Matt Jackson

but as the wind increases, and I go out on the wire, the rig depowers itself and I have to come back in - somewhat frustrating hence the high rig tension.



Classic problem of some years ago: If spreaders are pushing inwards because they're outside the line of hounds to anchorage then when going to winwdward the windward spreader is pushing the mast down to leeward, the leeward shroud tends to go slack, doing nothing. In practice the mast stays fairly straight. If heavy crew on trapeze then the winward shroud goes slack and the leeward one is loaded, thus the leeard spreader is pushing the centre of the mast up to windward, windward spreader not doing much, rig massivel;y depowers.

Thus the need for massive rig tension on modern trapeze boats. Alternative ways round it are to use diamonds rather than spreders - hence the Laser 2 and RS600 rigs - or to lock the mast solidly in place with check stays to the base of the spreaders like a lot of two spreader rigs, where the mast is held centred by the checks fighting the spreaders. This still tends to need a lot of rig tension though.

BTW folks kicker can't cntribute that much to forestay tension because its working at a massive mechanical disadvantage due to the length of the levers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 05 at 12:38am

[/QUOTE]

BTW folks kicker can't cntribute that much to forestay tension because its working at a massive mechanical disadvantage due to the length of the levers.[/QUOTE]

Yes to some extent - but you put the rig tension on a 49er with a 5:1 purchase in the boat breaker.  Most kickers that work have some about 16:1 purchase - you can pull quite hard on that...plus if you are looking at hiking classes with typically low rig tension it can be significant.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 05 at 9:46pm

Yes to some extent - but you put the rig tension on a 49er with a 5:1 purchase in the boat breaker.  Most kickers that work have some about 16:1 purchase - you can pull quite hard on that...plus if you are looking at hiking classes with typically low rig tension it can be significant.

[/QUOTE]


Yes but the length to the bow is 1800mm ish and the kicker distance that u have been discussing is ~ 20mmish at most.

therefore 1800 x 5 = 9000 for the boat breaker
and 20 x 16 = 320 for the kicker

so the kicker tension is 30 times less effective!
and you don't pull the kicker string any where as much as the rig tension, so this must go to more like 100 times less effective in practice - regardless of the other mast compression/bending effects etc dicussed above.
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