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Iain C View Drop Down
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Posts: 1113 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pricerunner
    Posted: 22 Apr 06 at 12:25am
Originally posted by Strawberry

The main is staying off the boom, that's the crews job (upwind).

Was hoping to use the swivel jammer on a turret in the middle of the boat for the jib and kicker. That's what I'm concentrating on upwind.

Will get in contact with Kevin, sounds much cheaper than Mr. Harken!



Hmmm, sounds like sledgehammers to crack nuts to me mate!

In the real world you will not adjust a Cherub jib and kicker as much as you will a Fireball main and kicker.  Fireball main is much more of a primary power control than a Cherub jib, and Cherub kicker is not as critical as a Fireball kicker as the mainsail is fully battened and usually operating at a much smaller range of apparent wind angles.

I would say you are better with an 800 style setup (jib on swivel and continous kicker to each side), or the kicker on a swivel if you really want it (possibly even with a split bridle to the drivers trapeze ring as some Contenders have)

Half the point of the Harken double jammer thingy is that it faces the driver after a tack as the ratchet is offset.  It follows the mainsheet round (in theory) as the angle changes.  As you will have one constant angle of loaded sheet into the main (now jib) jammer, it makes the whole ball bearing swivelly £200 thing a bit pointless as two cheapo swivells side by side will do the job for much less money.

Also matey, it is a BIG piece of hardware to negotiate your way round in a 12' boat...your crew will be losing shins!!

Give it a go by all means, but I would guess if the 14s/12s/18s/49ers have not done it, it might be for a reason...

RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
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Strawberry View Drop Down
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Posts: 1337 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 06 at 1:13am

Originally posted by Iain C



Give it a go by all means, but I would guess if the 14s/12s/18s/49ers have not done it, it might be for a reason...

All very good points and I thank you for your suggestions.

But actually the 14's have done it! That's where I got the idea, seems to be latest fashion.

The point behind all this:

The problem:
At the moment my jib sheet is cleated from a Ronstan "flip-flop" block on the mast stump at about foredeck level. So when I'm on the wire it goes all the way accross the boat, get's in everybodies way (well the crews), is a bitch to cleat/un-cleat and is a general pain in the arse!!!

The Solution:
Leading the sheet to a block and cleat closer to the middle of the boat seems the obvious solution. I was thinking about using a Duo Cam for this has it already has a "thru-deck" swivel built into it. I got the idea for this from Grant Beebe's new 14.

The progression:
It then seemed like a sensible idea and natural progression to use the other jammer for the kicker aswell.

The advantages:
I think it would be easier, less stringy, and easier to adjust on the water than having it lead to the wing.

The disadvantages:
You right about the price. £200 is ridiculous for the swivel cleats. I will get in contact with Kevin Ellway and see if it's possible to make a custom one.

What it might possibly look like:
Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry
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Iain C View Drop Down
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Posts: 1113 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 06 at 9:46am
I salute you sir for having your on the pulse of development sailing *helps himself to big chunk of humble pie*

However...

In pics 1 & 2 someone has paid £200 for the super swivelly thing, then angle ground both the second cleat and the gubbins for the ratchet block stand up spring straight off it! And I do mean cut off...that is one piece of ally all the way to the middle of the swivel, the only way a second cleat is going back on that is if someone is handy at welding aluminium. (I'm assuming that's a Harken swivel, quite a blurred photo, I think they are both Harken and the top one has a Ronstan cleat fitted)

Normally that blue rope would go over the first roller (as it does in the pic), under the second, and through the cleat that did live under the main one (used in the pic) that has now been angle ground off.  You can only feed one rope in from underneath on that swivel...the second must come in from on top, meaning you need a block of some description and a different sheet lead which is where it gets messy.  AFAIK it's the only Harken swivel that has a hole through the middle, but you can get some much smaller ones that are through deck for about £30, I fitted on to my previous FB for the kicker as I did not to pay for a double version.

The bottom one is the I14 at sailboat, and when I looked at it, it seemed to be just a converted single swivel, not a duo, but I agree, it's a very neat solution.

Give me a buzz if you want to chat!
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Enterprise GBR21970
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Granite View Drop Down
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Posts: 476 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 06 at 8:45pm
I think there is a hole in the market for a decent swivel cleat for a line comming up through the center. the current options for jib cleats all seem a bit too high friction and rubbish.

I think you are best to have some distance between the two control cleats to avoid the string getting too tangled up with each other.

With the crew doing the main I would go for kicker led out to both sides at the front for the crew and the jib sheet dead ended on the main sheet. Crew chucks the jib sheet to helm after a tack.
If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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Isis View Drop Down
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Posts: 2753 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 06 at 9:20pm
Not that this will help strawb at all as he knows but just for the sake of chucking it into the field...

Ive got a Holt Allen swivel jammer being converted to have the jib sheet run up from underneith. Just a case of grinding off the built on shackle type loop normaly for attatching the ratchet too and the center of the swivle drops straight out leaving a nice hole for the sheet to be led up. Then mounting a small turret on that with a thru-deck block and the sheet led up through that and out to the normal cleat on the swivel arm. Jib and main sheets will be one continous rope.

Kicker will be led back to the middle of the cockpit inside the kickbars and then out over the wings and round the back with an elastic take-up system
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bovlike View Drop Down
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Posts: 221 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bovlike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 06 at 9:33pm

We have a harken swivel jammer with a Ronstan cleat converted by Ovington works realy well it is one of the pics above.

Jib and main sheet is all one rope with the kicker continus and lead to both wings in the middle of the boat.

Kicker works well as both of us can adjust the kicker. If it was at the front only the crew could get it and he would have to go forward to let it off, not what you want in big winds!

Ian (Bov) Turnbull
18ft Skiff Ronstan UK
Chandlery, tapered ropes and specialist solutions for sailors who demand the best - BovBoats.co.uk
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Chief Wiggam View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chief Wiggam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 06 at 10:22am

(On a Fireball) - if it's of any use to this debate I have a Ronstan swivelling main unit, base only, with a customised attachment supporting (on a strong spring) a double Harken Airblock to lead the mainsheet through to a Spinlock PX0812 jammer which is quite simply the "Dogs".

As far as price goes you simply cannot beat E Bay - set up some favourite searches for Harken Ronstan etc and the amount of gear is quite extraordinary on occasion - USA sellers seem to pay about 50%of the price we do!

 

 
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allanorton View Drop Down
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Posts: 228 		Post Options Post Options   Quote allanorton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 06 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Strawberry

Has anyone heard of a website called www.pricerunner.co.uk?
It is a website where you type in what you wanna buy, and it search's the web and finds the best price for you.
Does anyone know of anything similiar for chandelry?

I'm looking to buy a Harken Swivel with Duo Cam (product 216). But the cheapest I can find is about £200! I know this is an expensive bit of kit, and I expect to pay alot for it. But at this price little differences make big differences, if you know what I mean.

This is the cheapest place I've found for harken bits, delivery prices aren't that cheap, but still cheaper than £200, it's worth putting a decent sized order together so the delivery price doesn't seem so bad!

http://www.sportextreme.com/pz817x10095yGBP/
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