New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Protrim speed indicator
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Protrim speed indicator

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
lozza View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 262
Post Options Post Options   Quote lozza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Protrim speed indicator
    Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 7:53am

Does anybody know where i can get hold of one of these speedometers which attach to the leading edge of the dagger board (for training purposes only).

I remember seeing them adverties many years ago but does anybody know if they are still available or if there is a similar product on the market?

Life's a reach, then you gybe
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 21 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 8:59am

I had one of  those sitting in the garage, just sold it on ebay last week;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=715 9797234&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&rd=1

 

Back to Top
timnoyce View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 05 Aug 04
Location: Hampshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1991
Post Options Post Options   Quote timnoyce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 9:18am
i'd suggest maybe a handheld gps. that way you can take it with you all the time and not need to worry about any drag!
BEARFOOT DESIGN
Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb
Back to Top
lozza View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 262
Post Options Post Options   Quote lozza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 12:22pm

Slight price difference tho with GPS,  the protrim can also be used for judging tides.  GPS is a little luxurious for improving boat speed.

Rick, did you find it useful at all?

Life's a reach, then you gybe
Back to Top
49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1991
Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 1:16pm
The Garmin GPS is meant to be really good although it cost £100-£200. The Protrim will probably be the equivalent to sailing with a damaged centreboard and not really good in general. Could cause more problems than it solves.
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
Helensburgh S.C
Boat Insurance from Noble Marine

Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 1:32pm

If you enjoy looking at the numbers to know how fast you are going, that's fine. If you want to learn about boat tune, forget it. The numbers change on every wave and in every gust. You need the budget of an AC campaign to be able to tune a boat from instruments.

For example: 1000m beat. A big gain from a tuning change would be a couple of boatlengths, which is something around 10m. That is 1%. Boats go to windward at, very roughly 5 knots, with the speed oscillating +/ 0.2 knots (at least) as you take waves. That's four times your 1% tuning gain, so it is completely lost in the noise.

Take it from someone who has spent thousands of hours helming yachts racing offshore, staring at the 20/20s. You can't tune a boat off instruments: the only thing sensitive enough is another boat to compare to.

 

Back to Top
lozza View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 262
Post Options Post Options   Quote lozza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 3:39pm

So measuring how quickly you regain speed after tacking is not going to work with a speedo???

My idea of the protrim is not to constantly see how fast ur going but to improve speed through manouvres.  I am well aware that two boat training is the best way to improve boat speed, except its not too handy if ur the only boat of ur class at a club.

Planing boats shouldn't have as much speed variation through the water as heavy yachts do anyway.  I'm not convinced by GPS over short distances, its very accurate over 8-9 meters but improving the speed through a tack in a dinghy should be done in less than this distance.  Also GPS only gives you speed over land, being a member of a club with relatively strong tidal currents means that this is not as good an indication as speed over water measurement

Life's a reach, then you gybe
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 3:51pm

Originally posted by lozza

So measuring how quickly you regain speed after tacking is not going to work with a speedo???

That would work.

Originally posted by lozza

Planing boats shouldn't have as much speed variation through the water as heavy yachts do anyway.
 

I've sailed both and the opposite is true. Yachts are heavy and therefore it takes a fair amount to speed them up and slow them down. Dinghies accelerate and declerate quickly by comparison. In most dinghies, you can tack and tack back on a 30 second windshift and gain. If you did the same in a yacht, you'd grind to a halt.  

Back to Top
Granite View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 04
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 476
Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 05 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by lozza

Planing boats shouldn't have as much speed variation through the water as heavy yachts do anyway. 

I would say that the opposite is true especialy as you go up wind and drop on and off the plane as you get in and out of the groove.

A GPS could be useful over the course of a leg if you waypoint the windward mark then you can look at your VMG as you change from fast and low to pinching to try and work out the change points, never tried though

If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 05 at 8:13am

Originally posted by Granite

GPS could be useful over the course of a leg if you waypoint the windward mark then you can look at your VMG as you change from fast and low to pinching to try and work out the change points, never tried though

Well I have tried and it doesn't work for the same reasons tuning on a boatspeed indicator doesn't work. If you turn the damping to something around seconds, the VMG dances all over the place. If you turn the damping to minutes, the breeze is never 100% steady for that long. Not all hand-helds let you change the damping anyway but the units yachts have usually do. The point is changes you get from tuning are very small compared to the changes constantly caused by other factors.

The only way you could make it work is record all the data (breeze speed & direction, speed, VMG, sheet settings, rig settings) and shoreside, feed it into a computer, average it out over weeks of testing and try to make sense of it. That is what the AC teams do but it is completely outside the resources the rest of us have available.

Two-boat tuning is the way to go. That works because, if you do it right, both boats experience the same changes to the breeze etc. and therefore you can make conclusions about the results of tuning changes. Have you noticed that the successfully AC and Volvo campaigns now almost invariably have at least two boats? Allowing two-boat tuning is one major reason for spending all that extra $$$$.

 



Edited by Stefan Lloyd
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy