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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Now you see it, now you don’t...(Holt)
    Posted: 04 Apr 10 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by giraffe

Originally posted by Merlinboy


I never said guarantees Rick, I suggested that as long
as there is an active demand the company should support
the class where possible with spares.  I also think that
if they are not willing to supply or build new boats they
should pass the licence over to the association!


But if we are going to talk about companies supporting
products for 20 years, try any of the car manufacturers?
!  Go to any Ford dealership and you can order a part
including replacement panels for a 1990 Escort.  If you
require any replacement parts other then book packs for a
Rover you will be able to get hold of new parts.


I don't understand your point really, am i expecting
to much for my money when buying into a class???



 


There is such a thing called the Automotive
Aftermarket.  Look it up on wiki.  This exists as the
market is so large.  The market for dinghies is smaller
by what some might describe as a substantial margin.  The
market is free not a controlled one.  In many ways this
causes problems as in a free market idiots can make silly
decisions and the market cannot protect them.  However in
a free market the best product is normally able to
survive.


Each company should be allowed to do what it wants. 
The customer is not obliged to buy a new suit of sails
each year and there should be no obligation for the
supplier to have made them just in case



Thats a nice one Giraffe, I don't need to google the
Automotive market thanks, I have worked in it for the
last 10 years, and write substantial reports on industry
information as well as working closely with multinational
automotive customers! So in fact my long necked friend
anything google wants to know about the industry it can
ask me!!!!!

For the record you and Rick are right, it doesn't stop me
having an opinion on the matter! Its just every time
someone tries to compare the motor industry to the dinghy
world it makes me laugh! As mentioned before Apples with
Apples and all that!

PS. if you want some info on the automotive industry
please get in contact my rates will be lower for forum
users!!!
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Guest View Drop Down
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 10 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by giraffe

Originally posted by Merlinboy

I never said guarantees Rick, I suggested that as long as there is an active demand the company should support the class where possible with spares.  I also think that if they are not willing to supply or build new boats they should pass the licence over to the association!

But if we are going to talk about companies supporting products for 20 years, try any of the car manufacturers?!  Go to any Ford dealership and you can order a part including replacement panels for a 1990 Escort.  If you require any replacement parts other then book packs for a Rover you will be able to get hold of new parts.

I don't understand your point really, am i expecting to much for my money when buying into a class???

 

There is such a thing called the Automotive Aftermarket.  Look it up on wiki.  This exists as the market is so large.  The market for dinghies is smaller by what some might describe as a substantial margin.  The market is free not a controlled one.  In many ways this causes problems as in a free market idiots can make silly decisions and the market cannot protect them.  However in a free market the best product is normally able to survive.

Each company should be allowed to do what it wants.  The customer is not obliged to buy a new suit of sails each year and there should be no obligation for the supplier to have made them just in case

Exactly; so if you are worried about what may happen to your class then buy into one where be builder dosn't own the design rights; that way is the builder gets bored of the class the class can continue with a new partner.

 
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giraffe View Drop Down
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Posts: 148 		Post Options Post Options   Quote giraffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 10 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

I never said guarantees Rick, I suggested that as long as there is an active demand the company should support the class where possible with spares.  I also think that if they are not willing to supply or build new boats they should pass the licence over to the association!

But if we are going to talk about companies supporting products for 20 years, try any of the car manufacturers?!  Go to any Ford dealership and you can order a part including replacement panels for a 1990 Escort.  If you require any replacement parts other then book packs for a Rover you will be able to get hold of new parts.

I don't understand your point really, am i expecting to much for my money when buying into a class???

 

There is such a thing called the Automotive Aftermarket.  Look it up on wiki.  This exists as the market is so large.  The market for dinghies is smaller by what some might describe as a substantial margin.  The market is free not a controlled one.  In many ways this causes problems as in a free market idiots can make silly decisions and the market cannot protect them.  However in a free market the best product is normally able to survive.

Each company should be allowed to do what it wants.  The customer is not obliged to buy a new suit of sails each year and there should be no obligation for the supplier to have made them just in case
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ColH View Drop Down
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Posts: 242 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ColH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 10 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by jeffers

....the very little known about trapeze option.....

??
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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 10 at 5:30pm

I never said guarantees Rick, I suggested that as long as there is an active demand the company should support the class where possible with spares.  I also think that if they are not willing to supply or build new boats they should pass the licence over to the association!

But if we are going to talk about companies supporting products for 20 years, try any of the car manufacturers?!  Go to any Ford dealership and you can order a part including replacement panels for a 1990 Escort.  If you require any replacement parts other then book packs for a Rover you will be able to get hold of new parts.

I don't understand your point really, am i expecting to much for my money when buying into a class???
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 10 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

Rick, The Rover collapse and the Motor industry in general is not really like the bloody leisure dinghy market is it!  Come on compare apples with apples.  When Rover went bump Thousands of people lost their jobs, not to mention the uncountable number of small business's that failed as a direct effect.  When Laser decide to chop up the vortex mould or Topper decide to stop supporting the Iso class, this does not put hundreds of families on the poverty line, it does however mean that people who have spent £10k buying into a heavily marketed "Class"  get truly shafted, even if the class is supported or could find a new builder, they won't sell up and would rather kill off the class!

This is just wrong, small minded and frankly poor business, maybe its a coincidence that they may now be in the sh*t! (i doubt it)

So give us an example of a company who guarantes to support their products for 20 years ...
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 10 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by jeffers

the Blaze had a slight advantage in that Topper didn't own the design rights

Bit more than a slight advantage I would say!

Originally posted by jeffers

Having said that Rondar have now built new moulds

Moulds aren't an issue really. They wear out and have to be replaced from the master plug, and even if you don't have that you could just make a new one or use an existing boat at a pinch.

Edited by JimC
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 10 at 2:32pm

Originally posted by Merlinboy

Jeffers thats my point exactly mate!  If they are willing to sell the moulds and licence then all good, everyone usually wins, the original manufacturer (they had the initial sales and parts revenue) the class (it has a long term committed builder) and the new builder (it has an established class to service)

This is where I suppose the Blaze had a slight advantage in that Topper didn't own the design rights so the class was able to speak to the design rights holder and get them to exert leverage on to Topper. Having said that Rondar have now built new moulds (definitely the deck as the layout has changed).
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 10 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Merlinboy

I also don't understand why if the manf has no intension of building the boat again, why it won't sell the mould and licence?! What harm does it do?

It means more competition for the boats they are selling. You only have to look at some of the "what boat" threads to realise that in practice quite dissimilar boats (amazingly so sometimes) may be competing for the same buyer's credit card.

The chances of a competitor starting off a new but similar class successfully are far less than that of them managing to re-invigorate an older class with a good number of existing boats behind it. Frankly I'm amazed that any SMOD manufacturer sells off their design and production rights at any price: I can't believe it makes business sense - unless they hang on to a decent sized design royalty...

Edited by JimC
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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 10 at 10:23am
Jeffers thats my point exactly mate!  If they are willing to sell the moulds and licence then all good, everyone usually wins, the original manufacturer (they had the initial sales and parts revenue) the class (it has a long term committed builder) and the new builder (it has an established class to service)
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