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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: team racing: contact between boats on sam
    Posted: 09 Nov 06 at 4:12pm
Recently I was umpiring a team acing events (a new experience for me). There was an incident (tacking boat failed to keep clear) between boats on the same team, in which there was contact the non infringing boat (the one that had held her course) decided to take a penalty. The other crew, that had infringed rule 13, was most upset when I red-flagged them.

My fellow umpire thought I should have allowed the team to choose which boat takes the penalty. However my reading of the relevant rule (D2.2(d) (1) and call L3 in the  team racing call book is that the boat that has infringed a Part 2 rule should take the penalty.

Question : when team racing when there is contact between 2 bouats of the same team can the team designate which boat takes the penalty or should the boat that has infringed a Part 2 rule take the penalty?

Gordon
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 06 at 4:33pm

Now this is an interesting one. 

Could they have argued that the tack was complete and the other boat was at fault ?

 

As one took the Pen.  Calling  a rules expert !!!!
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CurlyBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 539 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 06 at 4:53pm
Was there damage? When I was team racing we were repeatedly told that if there was contact between boats on the same team and neither boat protested then, assuming no damage, no penalty need be taken. However this may have been from the coach who told me the kicker wasn't important and I don't have my rule book to hand..
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 06 at 5:04pm

It's a bit weird, really, that you get penalised for fouling another member of your own team. I suppose it is a comfort for people who loan their boats out for team racing.
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 06 at 5:08pm

Originally posted by CurlyBen

Was there damage? When I was team racing we were repeatedly told that if there was contact between boats on the same team and neither boat protested then, assuming no damage, no penalty need be taken.

I think that is true, unless there is an umpire who says different. However I may be wrong, as my experience of team racing is miniscule.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 06 at 5:33pm
The rules say :

D1.2(a) There shall be no penalty for breaking a rule of Part 2 when the incident is betwen boats on the same team and there is no contact.
D2.2(d) When a boat breaks (...) a rule of Part 2 through contact with another boat on her team, and does not take a penalty; (...) an umpire may take action without a protest from another boat. The umpire may impose a penalty (...)

Case L3 answer 2 :When there is contact between team-mates, the one that has broken a rule is penalised.

There is no doubt that when there is contact between team mates one boat should take a penalty. I am sure all those who fund or lend boats for team racing think that this is a good idea.

However, should the umpire allow the team designate which boat takes the penalty. Reading the rules leads me to conclude that he/she should not, but it would seem that in practice this is what is done.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 06 at 10:42am

Forgive my lack of knowledge on team racing, but could there actualy be advantage to be gained by the team choosing who does the penalty??
If advantage could be gained somehow then i think the umpire should be the one making the call, but if no advantage can be gained then leaving it up to them doesnt seem to be a problem. 

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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 06 at 11:05am
In the case in questio the right of way boat was, by far the best sailed boat in the team. There was a clear advantage in that boat taking the penalty.

The umpire also has the option of giving an extra penalty if they decide that a boat that has taken a voluntary penalty has still gained an advantage.

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 06 at 2:11pm

Originally posted by gordon

There is no doubt that when there is contact between team mates one boat should take a penalty.

Where does it actually say that?

It says an umpire can (and presumably should) call for a penalty. But I don't see anything that says in the absence of damage, and the absence of a call for a penalty from the umpire, that a boat that fouls and contacts a team member must take a penalty.

Originally posted by gordon

I am sure all those who fund or lend boats for team racing think that this is a good idea.

Yes. I know people who have loaned boat their boat for team racing and came to regret it



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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 06 at 2:34pm
Stefan,

RRS D1.2(a) There shall be no penalty for breaking a rule of Part 2 when the incident is between boats on the same team and there is no contact.

This is a limited exception to the basic principle "that when compeitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty"(...)

If there is contact then this exception does not apply, a rule has been broken (if only rule 14) and a penalty should be taken.

As i understand it the people who wrote the present set of rules did not believe that playing nautical dodgems was part of our sport. I agree wholeheartedly with them.

Gordon
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