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NS14 - Are they Good? |
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Chew my RS 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 05 Oct 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 790 |
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 Topic: NS14 - Are they Good?Posted: 20 Apr 06 at 4:48pm |
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I don't subsrcibe to this- planing can be defined it is just difficult ot model 'detahced flow' with current software and maths. hence big flat chine sections promote stable planing and bags of drag in light stuff. No, no , no! Overcoming 'hull speed' by getting through 'boat length = wave length' is not related to planing at all. A catamaran can (and does) pass through this point, but it doesn't plane. Planing is related to dynamic pressure, not bow wave formation. |
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damp_freddie
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
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Posted: 20 Apr 06 at 4:20pm |
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It will plane upwind with a light crew in it's desing wind- a meagre 9 knts. It took me over 14 to achieve it and often I found pointing preferable. Off wind , yes it is slow compared to a sub 950 boat but it is making good VMG-ddw. Also it will plane readily on the "Fetch" - there is even a little bump in it's Polar to show this. Refer to 'high performance sailing' and you will even see a shot of the WOODEN pre-production 'tasar' - the super-nova NS14- planing happily upwind. I find it surptising negativity from a b14 sailor, which is a similar hull to the tasar. Having sailed and turtled both types the 14 is an obvious descendant built for blasting in the big sea breezes of Aus'. Not suitable for a novice crew in the least.
Some boats are heavier but I believe current hulls are as you quote. I had an early one a while ago which was kevlar inner, closed cell foam and thin glass outer. These early boats had a habit of parting company with their Decks (from PS Ltd) Also they couldn't build it down to a cost and so asked frank bethwaite for something they could build - hence the laser 2 -which is reasonable enough as part of their range for 1980. Incidentally, the 59er which is bigger allround, bare hull is I believe sub 60kg!
i don't subsrcibe to this- planing can be defined it is just difficult ot model 'detahced flow' with current software and maths. hence big flat chine sections promote stable planing and bags of drag in light stuff. Planing is visibly defined as overcoming a bump on a drag curve, climbing the bow wave and leaving the quarter wave behind you or rapidly accelerating away from predicted hull speed on a polar diagram. |
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 2:49pm |
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The rotating mast is still legal, but only if the mast is a Reynolds or one of the old gold proctor ones. Unlike the Tasar, though, the mast only rotated with the boom, and as the Proctor C section (and the similar sectioned Reynolds before it) weren't far off round, it made no real difference! I think at Whitefriars we have enough space for a Tasar, and it would be in the medium conditions that things would be interesting, finding out at what wind strength the Tasar gains the advantage over the more highly rockered older designs. My crew is very happy in her Firefly, so this will be something to look into when my son is a little older!
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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blaze720
Really should get out more
Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 2:28pm |
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"I've yet to sail a Tasar ......" At least that's simple enough to sort - the only way to assess any boat is to sail one first. We can all have views about the Laser perhaps, but if you have not sailed a particular class, or perhaps even sailed against a good one, whether it be a Tasar, MR, N12 or whatever personal views can carry only limited weight. A more reasonable question to pose is why are are many more recent boats so horribly slow with wider beam, a third sail, sometimes even a trapeze and the 'benefits' of a more recent SMOD manufacturer input ? It's not as if a Tasar is extreme in any real way or a handful for mere mortals to race. Handicap on a gravel pit ? - depends on how much wind and how restricted the water - if its very small Firefly/Albacore are better handicap bandits (lower strightline speed and more rocker = relatively faster to tack and less cost) . And another thing why exactly did the Firefly drop its rotating mast ? And are they still legal ? Blaze 720
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 1:51pm |
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I would have thought it would be better to compare the Tasar with the Albacore rather than 12's and Merlins? I'd certainly be interested to see if the Tasar could hold its own on handicap (or possibly on the water) in typical UK gravel pit conditions? I've yet to sail a Tasar (on the to do list as a Firefly sailor, the concept behind it being the same) and have crewed Albacores a little and raced against them a lot, so I would love to know which holds the edge, if anyone knows of any that do sail in the same fleet?
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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combat wombat
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 16 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 345 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 1:50pm |
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Fair enough!
The Tasar is a nice boat, but I'm glad someone recognises that it has bad points too! Thank you Chris, in the spirit of reciprocity I'll point out the drawbacks of the B14: It drags its arse unbelivably in light winds the foredecks on the Rondars are fragile takes ages to rig and the wings are hard to put on slams upwind in waves have to bag the huge kite I think as long as everyone can agree that no boat is perfect (and stops suggesting to everyone they should own one (not accusing you of this Chris)) then we'll all get along fine! CW Edited by combat wombat |
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B14 GBR 772
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 1:05pm |
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Well hmmmm...yeah no (and other non-committal noises that try to
indicate I'm not trying to start a fight but merely to voice an
opinion....)
I suppose it's hard to define "very different" but I can't see much that the L2 shares with the Tasar. Totally different concept in hull shape. Totally different rig. Totally different target market. Different heritage. The 68kg is fitted; I've weighed my boat in at champs many times. It's simply not correct to say that 68kg is "average weight" for a 15 footer. I know the Tasar isn't IC fast (I own and sail an IC too) but the point is that upwind it feels a lot closer to an IC than it does to a Laser or something similar. Is it perfect? HELL NO!! The Tasar has problems. The rotating mast can be a complete sod for the crew. It's certainly not at its best in light winds and enclosed waterways. The hull shape is well out of date in terms of speed for a boat in the medium performance range, and a modern NS14 is much quicker. The Vee shape has higher wetted surface and less dynamic lift. I personally find the traveller setup annoying in tacks. The mast is heavy. Pedestrian downwind? I suppose it depends where you sail and what you like; one of the best NS designers rates the Tasar as similar in speed to the modern NS and in a breezy reach both are very quick for mid-size non-kite dinghies. Would I sail one if I lived where you do? Dunno. Maybe a N12 or MR would be better in that context. No they are not that comparable to a modern NS14. But all I was trying to say is that yes the Tasar can plane upwind. And seen in context (as a mid-size non-spinnaker crewed hiking dinghy) it is probably the fastest OD in the world. Sure it's no B14 but it doesn't pretend to be just like the B14 doesn't pretend to be a 49er (despite having influenced the 49er a hell of a lot). Edited by Chris 249 |
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combat wombat
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 16 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 345 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 10:07am |
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So where did the PN come from then? My argument is that hull and
rig efficiency, yes they are a big factor, but in the end the boat is
not much different to a Laser II, and the PN reflects this. Yes,
the Laser II does have a kite which will make it faster downwind so by
rights the Tasar will be faster upwind, but it isn't rocket ship fast
and certainly not International Canoe fast.
Its just people seem to think that the Tasar is the be all and end all of boats, whenever someone asks what boat they should buy, or what boat is best on handicap, someone always pipes up with Tasar "cos its the best" etc. I know its a good boat and I will say that it was ahead of its time, but it annoys me when people are so set on their belief that they will not admit its drawbacks. As for weight, 66 kgs (unfitted, as the North American Tasar Association says) is not particularly light, my B14 weighs just over 60 kgs unfitted, 2 kgs under the class minimum weight for an unfitted hull. Vareo weighs 67kgs unfitted, others come in at around the 60-70 mark. Again, I'm happy to admit that the Tasar is a good boat with an excellent rig, but it has its drawbacks. |
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B14 GBR 772
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Chris 249
Really should get out more
Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 9:34am |
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Well, the Tasar is not "average weight"; the hull with fittings is a genuine 68kg which is significantly lighter than even an International 14, let alone the Merlin. The Tasar also has the advantage of an over-rotating wing mast. Re upwind planing. Planing of course is almost impossible to really define; it seems easy at first but many top designers are baffled when it comes to working out just when it happens. Uffa Fox claimed to have invented the planing dinghy, but he told naval architects years later that sailboats were “not really in the “planing” range at all!" Planing, Julian Bethwaite agrees, is “virtually impossible to define – and the more you look into it, the more impossible it is to define”. Having said, that, you want pics of a Tasar planing upwind? Try pic 20.13 of Bethwaite's High Performance Sailing. It's hard, though, to take a pic that reall demonstrates upwind planing, and going upwind in planing mode in a Tasar is significantly but not massively faster for VMG than just going high and fast. We used to be clearly faster than the gold medal 470 upwind in breeze and we were very light; good enough to beat 90 boats at the worlds but not the remaining 15 or so. The Tasar is clearly closer in upwind characteristics to an International Canoe than it is to a Laser, put it that way. Notes from a tuning talk by Charlie McKee explicitly refer to the fact that the boat can plane upwind; see http://www.tasar.org/racing/mckeesem85.html Charlie was one of the top 18 Foot Skiff sailors in the world, an Olympic medallist in 49ers, and either a gold medal FD sailor or silver medal 470 sailor (I forget which McKee brother won which medal). I suspect someone with that sort of history in trap boats and skiffs may have some knowledge of planing. In the end, and just to confuse matters, a Tasar planing upwind is slower than a modern NS14 which slices upwind rather in the matter of a Moth. By the way, according to John Spencer (designer of the Cherub and its 14' sister the Javelin) the super-efficient NS14 was for some time quicker than the trap-powered Jav upwind. Edited by Chris 249 |
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blaze720
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Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 9:16am |
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" I refuse to believe that the Tasar is really that fast. Its a narrow beam 2 man hiking dinghy which was launched in 1975, average weight with average sail area. It has no spinnaker. Whilst I will say that it should take out a National 12, it is very unlikely to plane upwind without help from a trapeze or more extreme beam and will be pedestrian downwind due to it only having 2 sails, except in a stiff breeze. ....." Yes they can plane upwind in the right conditions but that is as much to do with its ultra efficient mast/sail combination (over-rotating specialist section) as it is to do with an effective and very light hull - makes you wonder what other boats could be a lot faster with an updated over-rotater but for the current SMOD fare it would look a bit expensive for the manufacturers involved perhaps. It was poorly marketed in the UK originally but thrived in many other countries. As for refusing to believe ..... 30 years of Tasar racing on several continents has not softened the PN yet but like the Laser it a tough one to sail below - subtle technique required. Blaze 720
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as its a bit harsh ! However having a read of the Bethwaite bible might be useful first. The Tasar is like many of their designs exceptional and while it will today struggle against MR's that is a function of many years further development of the MR and their current 'handicap' perhaps.|
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