How much room when rounding clear ahead?

mark room

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At the weekend, approaching a leeward mark ,I broke an overlap before entering the zone, and then did a classic “wide in, close out” rounding.

The boat behind threatened to protest because I had “taken to much room”, which got me thinking about what limits the amount of room and course a boat clear ahead can take.

18.2b  allows the boat clear ahead mark room and the definition of mark room allows:
·      room to sail to the mark
·      room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

As the mark room definition refers to the room definition, it seems that the boat clear ahead is entitled to room to round the mark “manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way”

So I conclude the boat clear ahead is entitled to make a reasonable wide in, close out rounding, but not go excessively wide to hinder the boat behind.   

Is my understanding correct?

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jcooper Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 16 Dec 15 Location: Hampshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Post Options Post Reply Quote jcooper Report Post Quote Reply Topic: How much room when rounding clear ahead? Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 6:13am
	< ="WebKit-mso-list-quirks-style"> At the weekend, approaching a leeward mark ,I broke an overlap before entering the zone, and then did a classic “wide in, close out” rounding. The boat behind threatened to protest because I had “taken to much room”, which got me thinking about what limits the amount of room and course a boat clear ahead can take. 18.2b allows the boat clear ahead mark room and the definition of mark room allows: · room to sail to the mark · room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. As the mark room definition refers to the room definition, it seems that the boat clear ahead is entitled to room to round the mark “manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way” So I conclude the boat clear ahead is entitled to make a reasonable wide in, close out rounding, but not go excessively wide to hinder the boat behind. Is my understanding correct?

jcooper Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 16 Dec 15 Location: Hampshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Post Options Post Reply Quote jcooper Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 6:20am
	RE-POSTED AS ORGINAL DIDN'T FORMAT CORRECTLY. < ="WebKit-mso-list-quirks-style"> At the weekend, approaching a leeward mark I broke an overlap before entering the zone, and then did a classic “wide in, close out” rounding. The boat behind threatened to protest because I had “taken to much room”, which got me thinking about what limits the amount of room and course a boat clear ahead can take. 18.2b allows the boat clear ahead mark room and the definition of mark room allows "room to sail to the mark" and "room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course." As the mark room definition refers to the room definition, it seems that the boat clear ahead is entitled to room to round the mark “manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way” So I believe the boat clear ahead is entitled to make a reasonable wide in, close out rounding, but not go excessively wide to hinder the boat behind. Is my understanding correct?

Brass Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brass Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 7:51am
	Being entitled to mark-room does not oblige a boat to sail only within that mark-room, You don't break rule 18.2 by taking more mark-room than you are entitled to. What a mark-room entitled boat sailing outside the mark-room to which she is entitled, can get penalised for is breaking a right of way rule (rules 10 to 13), if she is the give-way boat, or rules 15 or 16 (room to keep clear rules) if she is the right of way boat. US Sailing Appeal 20 explains that a mark-room entitled boat that is required to keep clear is NOT entitled to go in wide out close (tactical rounding) and is only entitled to room to sail directly to the mark and round it (seamanlike). https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/931 That is, 'seamanlike' is not 'fastest'. Edited by Brass - 30 Jul 20 at 8:27am

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 8:18am
	But if the boat is clear behind, surely she isn't a right of way boat, so the leading boat can sail where she would in the absence of the other boat?
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Sam.Spoons Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3401	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam.Spoons Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 9:39am
	Interesting to see that that case is from 1968 but is still considered relevant today. I'd agree with Rupert that it doesn't apply in this case as the complaining boat was clear astern and thus not a RoW boat.
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Brass Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brass Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 11:11am
	US Sailing Appeal 20 is the seminal case that introduces the 'tactical rounding' vs 'seamanlike rounding' language. Why should it not be 'relevant today'? Like all Cases and Appeals it is reviewed and updated with every cycle of rule changes.

Riv Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 23 Nov 13 Location: South Devon Online Status: Offline Posts: 353	Post Options Post Reply Quote Riv Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 7:21pm
	Why is in wide out close seen as a tactical manoeuvre?
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jcooper Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 16 Dec 15 Location: Hampshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Post Options Post Reply Quote jcooper Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 7:52pm
	Further to Riv's question, does a non-tactical rounding allow a course which goes wide enough to allow exit close enough to the make to prevent the boat behind nipping through the gap?

Brass Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151	Post Options Post Reply Quote Brass Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 11:11pm
	Read the Appeal, guys. 'tactically desirable' is used in the sense of 'to finish as quickly as possible', not in the sense of inter-boat tactics. A boat entitled to mark-room is always entitled to close the door: that's what rule 21 exoneration for breaking rules 15 and 16 does. Edited by Brass - 30 Jul 20 at 11:14pm

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 31 Jul 20 at 7:10am
	Reading the appeal, it is exactly as I'd expect it to be. But it isn't the situation the OP originally states. As for nipping in the gap, I'd think that if rounding closer, you have a choice. Keep the speed and leave a gap, or slam the door and accept that the loss of speed is worth keeping the outside boat to leeward.
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