Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Sailjuice Global Warm up handicaps |
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G.R.F. ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 4:00pm |
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No way, how sad for you..
Er take a shower dude, leave the clothes you're going to wear home in the changing room, change into special rubber 'wetsuit' sea sailing clothes, when finished shower and change back into your cardigan chords & brogues
What? Oh sorry didn't realise, best leave her at home, they do scratch so don't they when you try it on at sea.
Ditto above, but hey come and sail off a shingle beach, cures that problem.
Hmm you must be a really hot sailor, wish we could predict ours..
You need to move, er closer to the coast, they have these retirement places just yards from our club, could be perfect for you, solo in the boat park, zimmer in its special rack..
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winging it ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3958 |
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not a great weekly turnout.....no money spent on infrastructure......could the two possibly be related? no one is going to want to sail there regularly while launching remains such a nightmare. spend the money on the ramps, more people will turn up 'If you build it they will come' sort of thing. |
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the same, but different...
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Sprint Bob ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 314 |
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Tide is an enormous factor in handicapping. There are a number of secondary effects that can effect one boat more than the other but the dominant one must be the speed of the tide relative to the speed of the boat. Fast boats have a much bigger advantage than slow boats. Slow boats have to travel further over the water to sail the same course. Consider 2 simple examples using 2 boats on a broad reach. 1) Let’s assume that boat A can achieve 8 miles per hour while boat B can achieve 5 miles per hour in the same wind on the same course. Let’s consider a simple I lap course between 2 buoys X and Y one mile apart with buoy X directly uptide from buoy Y. The wind direction is perpendicular to the tidal flow and the tidal flow is constant at 4 mph. Both boats start at buoy Y. Boat A sails to buoy X into the tide at 4 mph (8-4) and takes 15 minutes to cover the mile. He then turns round buoy and sails at 12mph (8+4) towards buoy Y and gets back to bouy Y in 5 minutes , so his lap time is 20 minutes . Boat B sails to buoy X into the tide at 1 mph (5-4) and takes 60 minutes to cover the mile. He then turns round buoy and sails at 9mph (5+4) towards buoy and gets back to buoy Y in 6.67 minutes , so his lap time is 66.67 minutes . I know I have ignored lots of second order effects but you can see that while on static water boat A is faster than boat by 60% ((8/5)-1)on this tidal course he is quicker by 233% ((66.67/20) – 1). This is a huge difference. 2) If we now consider the same course but with the tide perpendicular to the course and in line with the wind. If there was no tide boat A would travel from buoy Y to buoy X in 7.5 minutes but if the tidal flow is still 4 mph the boat gets taken 0.5 mile off course during that time. Similarly if there was no tide boat B would travel from buoy Y to buoy X in 12 minutes but if the tidal flow is still 4 mph the boat gets taken 0.8 miles off course. To do the analysis correctly you have to resolve the vectors and take into account the impact on the boats speed of taking a modified heading to allow for the tide. Never the less you can see that simplistically the slow boat has to travel extra distance over the water than the fast boat – so not only is the boat A faster than boat B by 60% but boat B has to travel further as well. If you resolve the vectors it amounts to about 14% extra distance for boat B but this takes no account of the reduced speed caused by the modified heading. So how is this taken into account by the PY system? The answer is it is not. All the data from all the clubs is considered and averaged so the RYA PNs will have some component of tidal data in their numbers. But it just causes more spread in the data from which PNs are derived. The SJ handicaps have effectively removed this for boats where there is enough statistical data from the inland results. Hayling Island Sailing Club have developed their own algorithm to make their handicaps more suitable for their tidal conditions. They treat the FF at 1023 as the pivot point and increase slower boats handicaps and decrease faster boats handicaps in a linear way with respect to the RYA PNs. The faster the boat, the bigger the negative correction. In the case of Star Cross I guess that they have concluded that some of the descrepancies between the perceived speed of the boats such as the Laser and it’s RYA PN is bigger than is the case for adopting the SJ inland handicaps so they are planning to go with the latter. In the longer term despite their tidal flows being lower than Hayling it would be better to try and fit the data with a small tidal correction super imposed on the SJ numbers which penalises fast boats and favours slow boats. The SCHRS system used for catamarans also ( I believe) has no way to allow for tides as it just considers the theoretical speed of the boat. Thus slow catamarans sail at a disadvantage to fast catamarans on tidal waters. |
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RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Tide or no tide, racing boats which are not similar on PY or any onther handicap system is never going to be an exact science. It's just a reasonable way to get a result.
The more similar the boats, the more seriously you can take it. A PY result between an RS400 and a Laser 4000 in F3 is a fair indicator of who sailed better, a PY result between a Mirror and a Musto skiff is a convenient and fun way of awarding an overall prize. Time spent fiddling the numbers would be better spent thinking about our own boatspeed. Actual numbers should only be discussed with a beer in your hand! |
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Absolutely Bob;
here's how I demonstrated it on our clubs website last year, very simplified:
"Vessel A does 2 knots in all directions (unlikely I know)
Vessel B does 3 knots ditto On a 20 mile there and back course with NO tide Vessel A takes 600 minutes Vessel B takes 400 minutes (no suprises there) Now add 1 knot of tide so both boats lose a knot turn around halfway and gain a knot.... Vessel A takes 800 mins (a penalty of 200 mins) ![]() Vessel B takes 450 mins (a penalty of 50 mins) " Slow boat gets a spanking ![]() Edited by GK.LaserII - 01 Dec 11 at 8:01pm |
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marke ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 16 Jun 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
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GK laser 2 - its significantly more complicated than that
![]() At Starcross we have a SQL database of more than 8000 tidal estuary race results to analyse. When we did the analysis we got results for many classes that were close to the SailJuice ones. I think this is because we change the start times for each race so that we are mainly sailing at the top of the tide and while we get waves, they are not significantly bigger than say Rutland/Grafham. So I think most of the time we are just another "open water" location and the tidal impact on the PYs is small. Even when the tide is stronger, this doesn't always benefit the faster boats. I'd put my money on an RS200 against an RS800 on handicap when close tacking up the shore to cheat the tide. I think this effect is amplified as the quicker tacking/gybing boats can dodge much of the tidal effect in an estuary and then take full advantage of the tide when it is advantageous. In light winds its pretty hard for a fast boat to get away from a slower boat when they have a strong positive tide. I think we have the evidence to show that for our estuary, "on average" the tide has less of an impact than you might expect. The result was a surprise to me too. I would definitely recommend collecting actual race timings for a couple of years and then analysing to data to get the local handicaps using the RYAs PYS or some other tool. Mark Edited by marke - 01 Dec 11 at 8:37pm |
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Ruscoe ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 12 Jan 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1514 |
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Fleet racing maybe fairly superior in terms of boat on boat sailing, but these big handicaps are fairly serious affairs. Can't remember the last time there was £1000 on the table for winning all the races at any 400 event. They are usually raced by most of the top sailors in each fleet respectively, so the fact you find handicap racing, fleet racing poorer uglier brother is kind of sad. As i would say its as if not more competitive then most RS fleet racing.
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Neptune ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Jun 09 Location: Berkshire United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Just looking through those handicaps for teh GGP.....the X1 river boat is alot faster than i expected.
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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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![]() That's why I used the phrase "Very Simplified". The example I gave just explains in a very simple way what can happen in a theoretical situation.
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Very pleased to have given you the chance to patronise though
![]() Edited by GK.LaserII - 01 Dec 11 at 9:35pm |
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ChrisI ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Aug 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 143 |
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Neptune.... thanks for picking this up.....
I think the good people at Grafham have understandably lifted the X1's handicap straight from the Queen Mary database - where it is 935, i.e. exactly the same as an RS400. And indeed the X1 is very close to the RS400 in handicap. You probably know that QM reduces the handicap of faster boats for their particular conditions, such that for the RS400 they took the published PY of 949 and reduced it by 14 to become 935. Andrew Craig's churning of the numbers there for the X1 over around 12 races in widely varying conditions suggested we should be have an overall PY of 955-959, but for their water, as well as the reduction of 14, another 6-10 points are deducted for being a 'one-off', which they do for all new designs... fair enough. I've just checked and see they are now rating the RS400 at 927.... perhaps something to do with very excellent RS400 sailors they have there now..... But for the GGP it now seems the RS400 has been put back on 949 but not the X1, meaning we rate lower than an Osprey, which is a pretty crazy, given the Osprey is over a foot longer and has a trapeze...? Crikey... I can see it's like a case of once something's been published it get's repeated and repeated without checking.... In the long term I expect the overall PY to turn out at 954 - 959 i.e. slightly higher than a RS400 (.... Phil Morrison who designed both boats initially estimated 970), although this figure should be reduced on tide no question, just like all other faster boats. |
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