New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Sailjuice Global Warm up handicaps
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Sailjuice Global Warm up handicaps

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011 13>
Author
G.R.F. View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 10 Aug 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4028
Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailjuice Global Warm up handicaps
    Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by JimC

I've got bored with sea sailing...
No way, how sad for you..

 
Originally posted by JimC

Clothes that already stink by the time you get home, 
Er take a shower dude, leave the clothes you're going to wear home in the changing room, change into special rubber 'wetsuit' sea sailing clothes, when finished shower and change back into your cardigan chords & brogues
Originally posted by JimC

salt cuts, salt everywhere,
What? Oh sorry didn't realise, best leave her at home, they do scratch so don't they when you try it on at sea.
Originally posted by JimC

 *sand* everywhere
Ditto above, but hey come and sail off a shingle beach, cures that problem.

Originally posted by JimC

  predictable wind shifts, 
Hmm you must be a really hot sailor, wish we could predict ours..

Originally posted by JimC

 at least two hours or more from home,
 tidally affected launching, all that stuff...

You need to move, er closer to the coast, they have these retirement places just yards from our club, could be perfect for you, solo in the boat park, zimmer in its special rack.. LOL
Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by JimC

> been done with launching ramps...

From what I can see QM really isn't that big a club as regards turnouts every week. Hard to justify spending a fortune on infrastructure for one event a year...


not a great weekly turnout.....no money spent on infrastructure......could the two possibly be related?

no one is going to want to sail there regularly while launching remains such a nightmare.  spend the money on the ramps, more people will turn up

'If you build it they will come' sort of thing.
the same, but different...

Back to Top
Sprint Bob View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 17 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 314
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sprint Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

It's nothing to do with current, it's to do with wave speed, quite often the waves are travelling faster than your average laser (yet slower than a faster handicap boat), so they come along, lift up the lasers ass and give them a lovely free ride, whilst providing more slow hillocks for faster handicap boats to climb.

Tide is an enormous factor in handicapping. There are a number of secondary effects that can effect one boat more than the other but the dominant one must be the speed of the tide relative to the speed of the boat. Fast boats have a much bigger advantage than slow boats. Slow boats have to travel further over the water to sail the same course.

Consider 2 simple examples using 2 boats on a broad reach. 

1)      Let’s assume that boat A can achieve 8 miles per hour while boat B can achieve 5 miles per hour in the same wind on the same course.  Let’s consider a simple I lap course between 2 buoys X and Y one mile apart with buoy X directly uptide from buoy Y. The wind direction is perpendicular to the tidal flow and the tidal flow is constant at 4 mph. Both boats start at buoy Y. Boat A sails to buoy X into the tide at 4 mph (8-4) and takes 15 minutes to cover the mile. He then turns round buoy and sails at 12mph (8+4) towards buoy Y and gets back to bouy Y in 5 minutes , so his lap time is 20 minutes . Boat B sails to buoy X into the tide at 1 mph (5-4) and takes 60 minutes to cover the mile. He then turns round buoy and sails at 9mph (5+4) towards buoy and gets back to buoy Y in 6.67 minutes , so his lap time is 66.67 minutes . I know I have ignored lots of second order effects but you can see that while on static water boat A  is faster than boat by 60% ((8/5)-1)on this tidal course he is quicker by 233% ((66.67/20) – 1). This is a huge difference.

2)      If we now consider the same course but with the tide perpendicular to the course and in line with the wind. If there was no tide boat A would travel from buoy Y to buoy X in 7.5 minutes but if the tidal flow is still 4 mph the boat gets taken 0.5 mile off course during that time. Similarly if there was no tide boat B would travel from buoy Y to buoy X in 12 minutes but if the tidal flow is still 4 mph the boat gets taken 0.8 miles off course. To do the analysis correctly you have to resolve the vectors  and take into account the impact on the boats speed of taking a modified heading to allow for the tide. Never the less you can see that simplistically the slow boat has to travel extra distance over the water than the fast boat – so not only is the boat  A faster than boat B by 60% but boat B has to travel further as well. If you resolve the vectors it amounts to about 14% extra distance for boat B but this takes no account of the reduced speed caused by the modified heading.

So how is this taken into account by the PY system?  The answer is it is not. All the data from all the clubs is considered and averaged so the RYA PNs will have some component of tidal data in their numbers. But it just causes more spread in the data from which PNs are derived. The SJ handicaps have effectively removed this for boats where there is enough statistical data from the inland results. Hayling Island Sailing Club have developed their own algorithm to make their handicaps more suitable for their tidal conditions. They treat the FF at 1023 as the pivot point and increase slower boats handicaps and decrease faster boats handicaps in a linear way with respect to the RYA PNs. The faster the boat, the bigger the negative correction.

In the case of Star Cross I guess that they have concluded that some of the descrepancies between the perceived speed of the boats such as the Laser and it’s RYA PN is bigger than is the case for adopting the SJ inland handicaps so they are planning to go with the latter. In the longer term despite their tidal flows being lower than Hayling it would be better to try and fit the data with a small tidal correction super imposed on the SJ numbers which penalises fast boats and favours slow boats.

The SCHRS system used for catamarans also ( I believe) has no way to allow for tides as it just considers the theoretical speed of the boat. Thus slow catamarans sail at a disadvantage to fast catamarans on tidal waters.

Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3011
Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 7:14pm
Tide or no tide, racing boats which are not similar on PY or any onther handicap system is never going to be an exact science. It's just a reasonable way to get a result.
The more similar the boats, the more seriously you can take it.
A PY result between an RS400 and a Laser 4000 in F3 is a fair indicator of who sailed better, a PY result between a Mirror and a Musto skiff is a convenient and fun way of awarding an overall prize.

Time spent fiddling the numbers would be better spent thinking about our own boatspeed.
Actual numbers should only be discussed with a beer in your hand!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 7:59pm
Absolutely Bob;
 
here's how I demonstrated it on our clubs website last year, very simplified:
 
"Vessel A does 2 knots in all directions (unlikely I know)
Vessel B does 3 knots ditto

On a 20 mile there and back course with NO tide

Vessel A takes 600 minutes
Vessel B takes 400 minutes

(no suprises there)

Now add 1 knot of tide so both boats lose a knot turn around halfway and gain a knot....

Vessel A takes 800 mins (a penalty of 200 mins) :shock:
Vessel B takes 450 mins (a penalty of 50 mins)
"
Slow boat gets a spanking Cry


Edited by GK.LaserII - 01 Dec 11 at 8:01pm
Back to Top
marke View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 16 Jun 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 211
Post Options Post Options   Quote marke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 8:23pm
GK laser 2 - its significantly more complicated than that  Wink

At Starcross we have a SQL database of more than 8000 tidal estuary race results to analyse.  When we did the analysis we got results for many classes that were close to the SailJuice ones.

I think this is because we change the start times for each race so that we are mainly sailing at the top of the tide and while we get waves, they are not significantly bigger than say Rutland/Grafham.  So I think most of the time we are just another "open water" location and the tidal impact on the PYs is small.

Even when the tide is stronger, this doesn't always benefit the faster boats.  I'd put my money on an RS200 against an RS800 on handicap when  close tacking up the shore to cheat the tide.  I think this effect is amplified as the quicker tacking/gybing boats can dodge much of the tidal effect in an estuary and then take full advantage of the tide when it is advantageous.  In light winds its pretty hard for a fast boat to get away from a slower boat when they have a strong positive tide.

I think we have the evidence to show that for our estuary, "on average" the tide has less of an impact than you might expect.  The result was a surprise to me too. I would definitely recommend collecting actual race timings for a couple of years and then analysing to data to get the  local handicaps using the RYAs PYS or some other tool.


Mark


Edited by marke - 01 Dec 11 at 8:37pm
Back to Top
Ruscoe View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 10
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1514
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


The more similar the boats, the more seriously you can take it.
A PY result between an RS400 and a Laser 4000 in F3 is a fair indicator of who sailed better, a PY result between a Mirror and a Musto skiff is a convenient and fun way of awarding an overall prize.

Time spent fiddling the numbers would be better spent thinking about our own boatspeed.
Actual numbers should only be discussed with a beer in your hand!

Fleet racing maybe fairly superior in terms of boat on boat sailing, but these big handicaps are fairly serious affairs.  Can't remember the last time there was £1000 on the table for winning all the races at any 400 event.

They are usually raced by most of the top sailors in each fleet respectively, so the fact you find handicap racing, fleet racing poorer uglier brother is kind of sad.  As i would say its as if not more competitive then most RS fleet racing.

Back to Top
Neptune View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 08 Jun 09
Location: Berkshire United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314
Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 9:08pm
Just looking through those handicaps for teh GGP.....the X1 river boat is alot faster than i expected.
Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by marke

GK laser 2 - its significantly more complicated than that  Wink

 
 
Wink I know
 
That's why I used the phrase "Very Simplified". The example I gave just explains in a very simple way what can happen in a theoretical situation. Smile 
 
 
 
Edited:
 
Very pleased to have given you the chance to patronise though LOL
 


Edited by GK.LaserII - 01 Dec 11 at 9:35pm
Back to Top
ChrisI View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 10
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 143
Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 11 at 10:27pm
Neptune.... thanks for picking this up.....

I think the good people at Grafham have understandably lifted the X1's handicap straight from the Queen Mary database - where it is 935, i.e. exactly the same as an RS400. And indeed the X1 is very close to the RS400 in handicap.

You probably know that QM reduces the handicap of faster boats for their particular conditions, such that for the RS400 they took the published PY of 949 and reduced it by 14 to become 935. Andrew Craig's churning of the numbers there for the X1 over around 12 races in widely varying conditions suggested we should be have an overall PY of 955-959, but for their water, as well as the reduction of 14, another 6-10 points are deducted for being a 'one-off', which they do for all new designs... fair enough.

I've just checked and see they are now rating the RS400 at 927.... perhaps something to do with very excellent RS400 sailors they have there now.....

But for the GGP it now seems the RS400 has been put back on 949 but not the X1, meaning we rate lower than an Osprey, which is a pretty crazy, given the Osprey is over a foot longer and has a trapeze...?

Crikey... I can see it's like a case of once something's been published it get's repeated and repeated without checking....

In the long term I expect the overall PY to turn out at 954 - 959 i.e. slightly higher than a RS400 (.... Phil Morrison who designed both boats initially estimated 970), although this figure should be reduced on tide no question, just like all other faster boats.


Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011 13>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy