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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Icon
    Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 5:46pm
Eh? What's your problem?

I've not got a problem with any aspect of this debate ... and I still have not got one if GRF wants to try a spinnaker and trapeze on an Icon hull.   Why would there be a problem for anyone ?   You are no real fan of the standard Icon  so maybe this negativity over the 3rd sails and wires on an Icon platform must be expected... but what if he is really is on an interesting track after all the 'puff and stuff' here?

It will not be an Icon of course but hell it might be interesting ...  I'm sure we will see a few photos and get a few updates and commentary here in the months ahead ... A lightweight NS derived modern boat with full carbon rig ... and in the UK.  You might never want one either ....  but I really really bet you follow that particular thread  too ...  Wink

Mike L.  (might be time for a lie-down now .... )

 
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scotsfinn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote scotsfinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by blaze720

2547 ..

If you don't want one - well fine.  If you don't want to even try one ... er why ?   and if you don't want one and don't even want to try one .....  just why are you really this interested ?  Believe it or not people have free choice for some of their alloted  time and amazingly some really do what they want rather than what others think they should do.  If you want a standard package holiday,  a main brand car or a 'big brand' burger, eat steak well done and you always buy M&S shreddies that is your choice .. so what is the problem with others who want something slightly different ?    This sort of stuff surely cannot challenge the world order ! (for that you should have tried board racing in the day  LOL)

It cannot challenge your own outlook either unless you let it.    I'm sure you will survive when some others choose to sail Icons  or even variants ...  or anything else out there for that matter ... so what is bugging you man ?  .... Chill !

Mike L.  (who had a great day in Icon 03 again with 'Dancing Farmer' and is now enjoying a decent glass of wine)

Grf will at least av a larf and I for one recon it'll be a blistering boat, assuming the mast is ok for all the extra loads ........ Whatever expect some spectacular pics and some even more spectacular BS from our online guru ..... Can't wait  LOL
Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
www.blueseaconsultingllp.com
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 7:02pm
I want a boat that I can sail on the sea, compete with a Merlin round triangle sausage legs, then use it on a small lake and compete with Miracles, Snipes and the odd Scorpion. I dont want old dross, I want a wash through hull, so when we capsize it doesnt take ten minutes to get back up to speed because were full of water. I ve actually bothered to find out how those silly old symmettric kites work so i can design a way around them, or adopt a twin kite approach maybe using dangle poles, maybe something along the lines of the 200 system they canned.

Right now, there is no boat that meets my needs. I like the icon hull, but i also enjoy what a kite does downwind. There are too many boats all catering for bits of what folk want, my idea if I were putting a product out there, which I'm not, would be to make it modular. Want a hiker? buy (a)pack, want a trap boat ? Buy pack (b), want a hiker with a sym kite? Pack © and so on, that hull could do any requirement I reckon hell it could even be a single hander. There again I could be wrong, its not beyond the wit of man to work out a PY, it's not going to be rocket ship fast, it needs a small enough kite to go round the cans on a lake and it doesnt have to have a trap, but it could and then there would have to be another PY.
Another reason we need a fact and measured PY system rather than loads of old buffers vested in keeping things in establshed classes and submiting half arse returns that nobody really bothers with unless, let me guess, they have vested interest or the green eye against a successful class eroding theirs. Whatever, I'm not going to let that stand in the way of progress.
If what I end up with is desirable, then nothing to stop it going into production and yep another boat maybe nobody wants unless RS or Ovington make it, but then that's their choice.
As always with anything I do, it wont be a big secret, and is open to constructive criticism, it just wont be called Icon. Psycon, Tricon, Bicon, Frankencon, whatever, lets just see what we can come up with shall we?

There's nothing that dramatic going on here, except freedom of choice, now nobody can disagree with that can they?

Edited by iGRF - 03 Nov 13 at 7:21pm
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by iGRF

There's nothing that dramatic going on here, except freedom of choice, now nobody can disagree with that can they?


Yes
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 7:47pm
Graeme call your one the CONstipated... Same old sh*t, stuck up the same old arse, creating the same old wind... ;-)

Edited by yellowwelly - 03 Nov 13 at 7:47pm
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scotsfinn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote scotsfinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Graeme call your one the CONstipated... Same old sh*t, stuck up the same old arse, creating the same old wind... ;-)

Awe cumon YW let Grf get on with his new project, it's built a sound foundation and will reach speeds that will produce brown trousers above 20kts ....... Constipation will not be a problem..... May the name should be iGROAN Wink
Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
www.blueseaconsultingllp.com
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Slippery Jim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by fdsailor

Someone has - it's the 59er. Didn't work out for a variety of reasons though, but there is talk in some quarters of it making a return

I´m still sailing mine in Bavaria! GREAT BOAT, super handling and very slippery when wet (hence the name  of mine). Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion... Wink
Pass the skiff, man!
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Slippery Jim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by fdsailor

I heard the light weight of the boat meant that the sheet loads were lower than you'd think, in spite of the size of the kite. The trapeze thing was certainly one of the nails in the coffin. Still time for that boat to make a comeback though, with the right builder and support (and strictly no fannying about with what was already a very good boat). There's one on Apolloduck for £2.5K, a lot of boat for the money. Julian Bethwaite said he thought it should have been built in poly instead of epoxy to help with the price, and people in the UK seem happy to buy primarily on price which is fine but there is a world of difference between the quality and technology of, say, an RS400 and a Winder Merlin for only £2K more money (all poly e-glass foam hull, grp boards, tin rig, mylar sails versus epoxy S-glass hull, carbon decks, carbon spars/foils etc). You get what you pay for, and to try to bring the 59er down to 400 prices might kill the performance a bit. I wonder what someone like Hartley Laminates could do with the 59er?

The B14 is altogether a more athletic boat, the beam that gives it the righting moment for performance makes it that more energetic to jump around...

The only thing you have to watch on the 59er is that getting out on the trapeze can be tricky and a couple of metal bars can help in order to kick off for that. hen sheet loads are very low and you reach about 25 knots in a straight line in a force 4, (VMG approx 20 knots) so not sluggish by any means. GRF used to sl*g us off something bad, probably because of that 505 clone he loved to try to sail. Haven´t heard of any Altos doing much recently though... Clap BTW, Julian is IMHO wrong. Dont confuse quality with quantity otherwise you end up going down the 400 route with a lousy kite...  

I´ll get my coat..
Pass the skiff, man!
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Jeepers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jeepers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 9:43pm
... but what if he is really is on an interesting track after all the 'puff and stuff' here?

I've kept an interest in the Icon as a simple, straightforward boat with great performance on restricted or open stretches of water. But seeing the turn of this debate, if I were a potential owner, the builder/marketer is now taking an interest in people developing trapezes and kites on what was professed to be a brilliant enough platform anyway. Sounds like anarchy to me.
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 13 at 10:13pm
interesting point Jeepers... maybe Mike's calling bluff here though, after all he practically offered Graeme a kite and pole from the back of the yard for his Blaze, but Graeme never actually took him up on it ;-)

But I can see where you're coming from if you're a lurker here reading this as a result of a bit of icon google research.

Also nice to see Slippery back again (hi Jim!) the 59er development is a good example of how not to do it- absolutely nothing wrong with the boat, AIUI, Julian B was never critical of the boat, just that it was slightly over-engineered for the target market, e.g. epoxy throughout, pushing the price up somewhat.  (I think he posted on SA along the lines of 'Dad just wanted the perfect boat for everybody').  

In the UK, some of us questioning the sanity of Ovingtons pushing the trap kit at the time.  It seemed to be trying to compete with too many things (and just maybe differentiate their conflict of interest with the B14)- the Osprey guys were not so impressed iirc.  All it did do was alienate the two handed hiking market- who may have been convinced with buying into the 'fastest and best' (possibly aimed at two blokes given the large kite) who were getting a bit bored with their 400 or wanted to ditch the wires on their 14 / 800 or former 5000 / Boss sailors looking for the next new thing.... either way, adding trap kits changed the dynamic of the marketing message and class lost its positioning imho.  

Will GRF send the Icon in the same direction?   



Edited by yellowwelly - 03 Nov 13 at 10:16pm
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