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devotiluca View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote devotiluca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Devotti Single Hander
    Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 2:36pm
rick immagine how boring for me to see that nothing has changed in ten
years....but quality always pays off at the end, by the way i have magic anti
d one experts emailing me privately to try the boat and than going on with
the same marketing song, kind of schizoid.one other builder running after
our boat and sailing next to a potential customer and claiming that their
boat is faster though with a py of 35 to 40 higher!!!!his words!!!, i really have
done my homework , boat is long ready and have no interest to sl*g off what
the other ones do ,market could be so big and our production capability is
already at the limit.just getting allergic to this precooked bs.....with respect
luca
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 2:45pm

Originally posted by devotiluca

rick immagine how boring for me to see that nothing has changed in ten
years....but quality always pays off at the end, by the way i have magic anti
d one experts emailing me privately to try the boat and than going on with
the same marketing song, kind of schizoid.one other builder running after
our boat and sailing next to a potential customer and claiming that their
boat is faster though with a py of 35 to 40 higher!!!!his words!!!, i really have
done my homework , boat is long ready and have no interest to sl*g off what
the other ones do ,market could be so big and our production capability is
already at the limit.just getting allergic to this precooked bs.....with respect
luca

I think you should just get on doing what you do best, building high quality racing dinghies and filling those around you with enthusiasm... it's a proven formula.

Don't get distracted.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 2:59pm

I'd agree with that sentiment from Rick.

I'm not convinced that any of the comments on the D1's looks are orchestrated on this forum, though I agree that once it has been said once, it doesn't need saying every post. I'd love to have a go in her, but as I'm certainly not in the market to buy, for size, location and money reasons, I'll wait until the chance comes up naturally, rather than wasting Devotti time with a test sail. Same goes for the RS100, though it is more likely one will come my way than a D1.

Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I'll wait until the chance comes up naturally, rather than wasting Devotti time with a test sail. Same goes for the RS100, though it is more likely one will come my way than a D1.

Where are you based Rupert?

Chances to test the D-One are coming up all of the time.  Testing by arrangement on Hayling Island subject to tide OR we are planning QM, a Midlands venue (Draycote or Grafham - maybe both) and also a Northern venue or two during the next two months.

email me for info - rodney@suntouched.co.uk

It really is best to try the D-One - that way you can post your comments here with all the facts and from your own experience 

Rodney



Edited by rodney
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 4:05pm
Hmm... same old, same old.

Firstly Luca, don't pay any attention to GRF, he specialises in winding
people up and sometimes drops his manners. Perhaps more time keeping
his Blaze the right way up and less flaming? Unless I am mistaken he has
sailed neither of the boats and just happens to not like daggerboards or
the look of the boat.

I am probably the only person lucky enough to have sailed both the d-
one and the 100 on the same day in the same conditions and as per my
previous posts, they are different and people should buy what they like
sailing. Inevitably the RS circuit will be strong, but some of the people
these boats are aimed at, do not follow the circuits, they just want a fast
boat that works and is nice to sail. I sailed a Megabyte for years-I
accepted that I would only sail on a handicap basis as there were only a
few around, but bought it because it was a fantastic sail and thoroughly
enjoyed it.

It is simple a daggerboard is more efficient and centreboard is more
convenient. I have no issue with either provided the daggerboard can be
held in place and the boom is high enough or provided the centreboard is
as efficient as it can be. On both boats I sailed they worked.

I am not sure that the stayed unstayed rig argument is particularly
relevant upwind in this case. They both point well and truck upwind. The
100 stays are primarily to support the spinnaker, so you could say they
are both unstayed. Downwind, there may be a difference and the mast
inversion looks wrong on the d-one, but as Luca has said and Tim has
born out, it makes the main deeper and apparently works. In my limited
experience of the boats, I did find the 100 a little easier and faster off the
wind, but it may be that more time in a d-one would rectify that.

In sail size, at 95kgs I doubt James would have a problem with either
boat. In each case a smaller sail is available if it blows up.

The semi battened sail on the 100 was 10.25 meters and control was
great. The FB sail on the Devotti needed a bit more thought, but in 15-
17knots I didn't have any serious problems. My Megabyte sail was 10m,
the Phantom is, according to NP, over 10.5m on the same software
package and the Halo is FB and 11.5m(?). Yes you have to be in the right
place, but the leverage and stability of these designs is so much greater
than boats such as the laser. For those of us starting to creak, the good
news is that both boats are much kinder on the knees, even if our
stomach muscles are going to need to be better!

I think it is just great that we now have a choice and that both the
manufacturers are still passionate about sailing and this is reflected in the
quality of the boats being produced. Lets face it, would we be as excited
if we heard that certain other manufacturers were doing this..not a
chance.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 5:15pm
I am very happy for Luca to use my boat space at Grafham to store one of these boats over the winter in return for being allowed to sail it on light days.  The pie eaters would have to sail it on heavy days.  Unless my diet goes pear shaped....

This would do me a favour too as it would a) stop me having to worry about tarting up the phantom and b) save me having to worry about whether I should be trading in the c boat for an RS600....

But would the d1 be any easier on my knees?

As for aesthetics, leave it to the expert:

Q: What is beauty?
A:
Kant divides beauty into two categories:

1) free beauty
--that which presupposes no concept of what the object ought to be;

2) dependent beauty
--that which does presuppose a concept of what the object ought to be and judges the perfection or imperfection of the object in accordance therewith.

        Only in the judging of a free beauty is the judgement purely one of taste. Free beauty is that which has "purposiveness without purpose." The beautiful pleases without concepts of utility or morality: "no subjective purpose can lie at the basis of the judgement of taste."



Edited by winging it
the same, but different...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iwsmithuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 5:36pm

Blimey, Kant on a sailing website.

Not often Y&Y has me reaching for the dictionary.

"purposiveness". Noun derived from purposive.

1.Having, showing, or acting with a purpose, intention or design.

2.Adapted to a purpose or end.

3.Serving some purpose.

4.Determined;resolute

5.Of or characteristic of purpose.

I'm not sure I'm any the wiser!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 6:41pm



the same, but different...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 7:50pm

Originally posted by winging it

I am very happy for Luca to use my boat space at Grafham to store one of these boats over the winter in return for being allowed to sail it on light days.  The pie eaters would have to sail it on heavy days.  Unless my diet goes pear shaped....

This would do me a favour too as it would a) stop me having to worry about tarting up the phantom and b) save me having to worry about whether I should be trading in the c boat for an RS600....

But would the d1 be any easier on my knees?

As for aesthetics, leave it to the expert:

Q: What is beauty?
A:
Kant divides beauty into two categories:

1) free beauty
--that which presupposes no concept of what the object ought to be;

2) dependent beauty
--that which does presuppose a concept of what the object ought to be and judges the perfection or imperfection of the object in accordance therewith.

        Only in the judging of a free beauty is the judgement purely one of taste. Free beauty is that which has "purposiveness without purpose." The beautiful pleases without concepts of utility or morality: "no subjective purpose can lie at the basis of the judgement of taste."

So you want a D-One in your dinghy space?  Might be possible!  Email me rodney@devoti-one.co.uk

Rodney

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 9:53pm

Originally posted by turnturtle

I think it has been put to bed Tim, but as GRF says, the D-One is benefiting from a lot of free
publicity from this, therefore it's going to have to roll with the punches a bit if you don't want to be
seen as a one-sided plug.

If you read back to the very first pages you will see that there was a lot of interest and positive talk from
all the 'now' critics of the D-One. And why wouldn't it be positive? A Devoti build quality matched
with the modern 'hiking asymmetric racing dinghy'? Recipe for success hey? And not to be too blasé
about it, but even the price wouldn't necessarily be a barrier for some- okay it's expensive for a
singlehander compared to solo, phantom, musto skiff etc. (IMO £10k is about £3k over most people's
comfort zones for a singlehander.) But on a personal level I could justify the initial outlay, but I
would be nervous that the initial depreciation on this would go well over the magic £1000 per
annum I factor into any boat purchases. But it's cheap compared to a full spec Finn and with a
comparable build quality, a positive bargain compared to a half share in a brand new Int. 14. Pricing
is therefore relative, and not at all helped by the current FX; but let's leave that to one side.

So why don't I like it? Well there are two principal factors:

1) Technical- all of which can be easily addressed with a test sail; and I hasten to add, I have no
formal training or technical knowledge to back up- just a hunch from 25 years dinghy sailing....

Firstly I am not convinced by a stayless rig on a kite boat. Luca has gone to great lengths to explain
the positives behind this, indeed the footage shows the rig depower nicely. However after sailing a
Vareo and wanting to change the clipped baby-stays over to a 'proper rig' and subsequent reports
from Andy that the shrouds and spreader prototype were significant improvements to its relatively
inglorious upwind character, I remain dubious about any stayless rig with this much canvass up.      

Secondly, that is one big, big main. At 95kg I'm heavier than a lot of people I sail against. I accept
this, embrace this in fact, because as soon as it's windier I have an advantage upwind. Downwind the
'loss' is somewhat neutralised because I have a kite. I can send it or soak, either way my weight will
be offset by the angle and relative speed to get the best VMG possible courtesy of that flamboyantly
coloured turbo charger under the hatch, which incidentally manifests another dull run into a tactical
battleground if I'm lucky enough to get class racing.

As Rick points out, these boats are going to turn the sailors into hiking monsters, there's no respite
downwind- or to put that into simple language, any hiking asymmetric is going to
be good news for Graeme's so well defined 'lard brigade' as we still have a half decent righting
moment even when we slack off.

However if the class degenerates into a heavy-weights only as suggested in Andy Rice's article; and
the PY ultimately reflects this, I will lose this advantage..... believe me, with my skill level, I'll take
whatever is on offer and if a bit of rail-meat in the breezy stuff means I can keep going just a bit
longer than the average, then that's good.

Finally, I want to sail a boat that attracts all types of sailors, not just the big lads away from
home
rugby tour mentality; I fear that youths and women will not feature in the D-One fleet,
which is a shame as sailing is one of the true egalitarian sports available at amateur level, and
ultimately can become a family activity when I finally grow up. Developing a fleet around this adds a
dynamic off-the-water that is second to none.... this in my opinion, has been the single biggest
selling point to the RS classes- they have harnessed what's best about sailing as a sport and created
an environment where it is easy to participate and join in.

However, back on the heavyweights only thing- Luca has assured me that this is indeed an incorrect
assumption, the boat will cater for wider weight categories. The winner in Torbole was 78kg,
another guy at 62kg was doing well and there is talk of wider wing options to open up to women and
youths. But the facts don't lie in the face of pre-purchase assumptions, or indeed the Y&Y review,
and 11m2 is still a lot of rag when it gets baltic, gusty and particularly minging over here in the
depths of winter.

To quote Andy Rice from the Y&Y review:

Sheeting on the 11sq m mainsail was hard work, at least to get it sheeted in as hard as Devoti was
telling me to from the coach boat.


Like I say I'll reserve final judgement until I sail it, but the main still looks 'too big' and I would be
disingenuous if I didn't also 'fess up that the recent increase in sail size on the 100 prototype doesn't
leave me equally questioning prior to my next test sail of the production boat... but there will be a
smaller sail option guaranteed, which I will use at club level as and when I want to, so in many ways
this isn't a real issue, and certainly not a barrier to buying one.

2) Aesthetics- now this is a point of view I hope you can at least appreciate, even if you don't agree
on the sentiment. As someone who was eagerly anticipating the announcement of the D-One long
before it was even lodged as a rumour on here, I had already formed in my mind what I thought it
would look like, and function like. I had assumed a similar build quality, look and feel and simple set
up of the musto skiff- just without a wire and some intel led me to believe it would probably be with
solid adjustable wings rather than racks. Luca's historic involvement in the MPS project was well
recorded, therefore I had wrongly assumed the boat would follow similar lines and have a 'modern'
look.

Luca found this thread on the 28th November last year and posted some info or a 'teaser' if you will,
however he didn't post a picture. So the expectation bar was further heightened- not only were the
rumours true, but our false anticipations were not corrected early on.

Unfortunately when the video first aired it showed the 'FrankenFinn' in it's finest glory, which whilst
pleasing on the eyes of long standing Finn sailors, it simply didn't have the wider appeal of 'the
musto skiff without trapezes' many of us were anticipating. I appreciate that some of the
aesthetically challenging aspects have now been corrected, however the fundamental design is more
Finn-like than many of us are willing to part our hard earned cash for.

Quoting Andy Rice again:

Aesthetically, on shore it’s not the prettiest boat...

and finally:

It was a striking boat, a strange blend of the traditional and the modern, but I wasn’t greatly
enamoured by the look of the hiking wings.


I guess you either get this rather literal translation of a 'modern classic' design brief as so many ex-
Finn sailors seem too; or like me, you still see it as slightly antiquated for a 21st century dinghy...
almost a homage to the long history of its seed- the Finn, a class I've never taken a great deal of
interest in wanting to participate in. But coupled with a price concern and very strong & popular
competitor in the form of the RS100, I can see the market for the D-One to be fairly restricted and
as such, limiting its appeal to sailors of my ilk.

I wish all involved well with the project, as I have said on numerous occasions getting more
singlehanded asymmetric dinghies on the water is a good thing and opening up hiking boats to this
great category of dinghy sailing is showing itself to be highly valued- as has been seen by the
successes of the D-One & RS100 in the face of the economic crisis!
    

 

Turnturtle,

A very well written post.

Tim

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