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Match Racing in Handicap fleets
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Match Racing in Handicap fleets
    Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:05pm
So personally I'm happy that it was legal.  So what of the question whether it was fair.  I had not previously thought about a (much) faster boat and this situation.  That certainly makes it easier for the fast boat - but does easier make it more wrong?  Not to me.  In a sense it's no different from a  heavy crew who need a points differential on a light boat adopting the technique when they get to the last race of the nationals and find a Force 1 - so they have to do it through sailing against the discard.

More than that - in conditions which do not favout you on handicap why not exploit the performance of your boat in other ways.

I think tactics like this enrich our sport - I had an interesting chat with a Dad who didn't like the example to his lad.....but hey life's like that too!  And you have to consider the consequences of a rule change which would create the much worse situation where people would have to do it be stealth (if they wanted to win that much! - and how do you judge between a tight cover and sailing someone back without mind reading?).

And I think there tends to be a split by fleet level and by class on this.  Certainly I don't see any protests or much whingeing from those affected.  Although I understand teh Phantom was a tad upset.....but took no protest action.

So if I was the Fireball I'd have no guilt - but I would regret doing it because when I analysed the results I'd think I either didn't do enough or should have done less and backed myself to be a few places better.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:51pm
It seems to me that the same issue is important here, whether by having different starts, it could be said that the 2 boats were by definition on different legs.

I'm sure the pundits here will have their opinions, but I wait for my answer from the authorities.

[/QUOTE]

I think your's is an interesting question but it doesn't apply here.  Because the Fireball had slowed it was on the same leg, ie rounding the same mark in the same order for the same number of times.

And as has been pointed out the limitations on the boat sailing back are only those within 23.2.

Someone has pointed out that this is only allowed where the aggressor can improve her position and questioned whether it could therefore have been outside the rules to do it in the first race of the Dash.  This rule is surely designed to avoid vexatious, gratuitous use of the match racing technique, where no benefit is possible, or to limit any "team raing" between mates.  So for me since the Sailjuice result could be improved I;m OK with that.

Interestingly 5 DD places would have given the Fireball the win, 3 second.  I reskon that without the killer shut off in race 6 which promoted the slow fleet they would probably have been good for the 25 points or so to achieve that. 
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:45pm
By the way, my Protest Committee had found that, Yes, the tactic was permissible.
Boats that meet on different rounds, of the same race, but on the same leg (mark-to-mark) are permitted to manoeuvre against each other.

It seemed unfair; hence the deeper question.

Nevertheless, that clarification was requested, and if an answer had resulted, maybe could have been applied to this situation. I think the point raised in this forum of Proper Course is particularly interesting and relevant for needing to, "...... finish as soon as possible ....".



Edited by OultonBen - 27 Feb 12 at 9:46pm
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:31pm
Don't expect a rapid answer from the authorities. I have a protest-committee question submitted (now over 6-months ago) regarding 1-on-1 match racing in a fleet by boats of very different speeds.

One boat was lapping the other when they found themselves on the same 'leg' [defining 'leg' as between the same marks] but on different 'legs' [defining 'legs' as subsequent parts of the course]; the question obviously asked for clarification of 'leg', in order to define whether the fast boat was permitted to manoeuvre against the smaller one (and in this case intimidate her, and slow her to gain a series result).

It seems to me that the same issue is important here, whether by having different starts, it could be said that the 2 boats were by definition on different legs.

I'm sure the pundits here will have their opinions, but I wait for my answer from the authorities.
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Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Little Monster

Jeffers

 

I can’t see how you can differentiate between tacking on somebody to slow them down and sailing them off the course. 

 

I watched Sheidt (if that’s how you spell it) and Bens brilliance at the Olympics when Robert sailed Ben over the line for a Black flag (Atlanta I think) and then Ben returned the favour in Sydney sailing him down the pan.  I have used them in the last race of a series to ensure a series win and will continue to do so if I ever get into a situation where I need to again (fat chance but there you go…). 

If you target somebody and can’t improve your score then you breach Rule 2 and should have a Rule 69 hearing in my opinion. So it becomes a question of when and where you do it.The art of match racing an opponent should not be lost its just that the Sailjuice Series is so unique I don’t think that the various SI’s and the way the results are combined holds up to the level of competitiveness at the top end of the fleet.

 

The situation at the weekend is a strange one in that the Fireball match raced the phantom off the water in the first race of the Dash.  They were racing in different fleets with different starts but the results were combined. 

 

Its arguable that the Fireball improved his position in the Series but within the Dash itself is guilty of being unsportsmanlike as it was the first race.

 

The discussion should be about the Sailjuice and whether these situations are desired and if not how they can be outlawed in the future.  It’s complex as different events are on a different basis i.e the Bloody Mary is a pursuit but the Grafham Grand Prix gives class results as they are run of different courses.

 

The Sailjuice started out as being a bit of fun to encourage people to get onto the water during the winter.  I am certain that they didn’t want to encourage this behavior and hope that they find a way of dealing with it.

On the whole the Sailjuice is a fantastic concept and the issues only affect a few at the top because for the most part those taking part just want to be on the water and have fun with their mates.

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Posts: 46 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Little Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:01pm

Jeffers

I can’t see how you can differentiate between tacking on somebody to slow them down and sailing them off the course.

I watched Sheidt (if that’s how you spell it) and Bens brilliance at the Olympics when Robert sailed Ben over the line for a Black flag (Atlanta I think) and then Ben returned the favour in Sydney sailing him down the pan. I have used them in the last race of a series to ensure a series win and will continue to do so if I ever get into a situation where I need to again (fat chance but there you go…).

If you target somebody and can’t improve your score then you breach Rule 2 and should have a Rule 69 hearing in my opinion.  So it becomes a question of when and where you do it. 

The art of match racing an opponent should not be lost its just that the Sailjuice Series is so unique I don’t think that the various SI’s and the way the results are combined holds up to the level of competitiveness at the top end of the fleet.

The situation at the weekend is a strange one in that the Fireball match raced the phantom off the water in the first race of the Dash. They were racing in different fleets with different starts but the results were combined.

Here in lies the crux the Fireball went after the Phantom to get a series score but in doing so did not improve their score within the Dash as it was the first race thus breaching Rule 2. Which event takes precedence within a hearing??  As I understand it there was no mention of the Sailjuice series within the SI's for the Dash so that it must be the event first.

The discussion should be about the Sailjuice and whether these situations are desired and if not how they can be outlawed in the future. It’s complex as different events are on a different basis i.e the Bloody Mary is a pursuit but the Grafham Grand Prix gives class results as they are run of different courses.

The Sailjuice started out as being a bit of fun to encourage people to get onto the water during the winter. I am certain that they didn’t want to encourage this behavior and hope that they find a way of dealing with it.

On the whole the Sailjuice is a fantastic concept and the issues only affect a few at the top because for the most part those taking part just want to be on the water and have fun with their mates.



Edited by Little Monster - 27 Feb 12 at 5:10pm
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

..... Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable.........


Sorry, that is simply untrue.
As has been established with clarification from the RYA.
You can sail another boat down the fleet in an attempt to better you place.
23.2 is the rule which places limits on it and that does not appear to have been broken.

There would appear to be a body of opinion that the rules need to be changed ( I would be happy to see a change too) but that is irrelevant.
 
I said 'acceptable' and not 'illegal', there is no requirement for the RYA to clarify that.
 
What can be done about it is a completely different subject.
 
There are those who think this is clearly an 'acceptable' practice and part of the game. There are also those who find is clearly distasteful and that it goes against the general principles of sportsmanlike behaviour.
 
Were I one of the affected competitors (oh to be as good as the helm of the Laser) I would definitely have chucked a protest in. the question is does a different start count as a different race (which is a matter for the PC when deciding if the protest is valid).
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Posts: 65 		Post Options Post Options   Quote LASERNUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:34pm
As the fireball was on the SAME leg and was racing one on one with all other boats there was not much that could be done with the rules. He just waited.
Different starts doesn't make much of a difference either. Pursuits have lots of starts!
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:27pm
but what can you do in terms of rules to stop interference by a boat in a different race or even by a boat not racing but just buggering  people about?


Edited by r2d2 - 27 Feb 12 at 4:27pm
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:25pm
..... Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable.........


Sorry, that is simply untrue.
As has been established with clarification from the RYA.
You can sail another boat down the fleet in an attempt to better you place.
23.2 is the rule which places limits on it and that does not appear to have been broken.

There would appear to be a body of opinion that the rules need to be changed ( I would be happy to see a change too) but that is irrelevant.
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