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    Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

As I've just pm'd Oldarn, the best buoyancy arrangement I've ever sailed was on Jack Holt's late-'60's Jacksnipe (here's a plus for Jack then, after the crit of his Ent!).




Double floor but with self-bailer-drained footwells that lowered he crew members' c.g.'s and gave more room under the boom. The footwells soon drained, in practice.

Even that could have done with slimmer side tanks, but mine (the prototype) was so overbuilt it floated low on its side anyway!


I vaguely remember it. How many were made?  It might be considered semi double bottomed. I assume it was complicated and/or expensive to make and most likely too heavy  but otherwise seemed a good compromise.

We considered a semi-double bottom for the AltO to the back of the c/b box, but for little gain in terms of carrying less water within and at  the expense of less comfort, less stiffness and heavier.

  
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 5:18pm
I believe 32 were made.
I was lucky enough to cut my teeth in no. 32.
It really was a very forgiving boat for learning to trapeze and spinnaker.
One point about the shallow crew footwells, which did drain very quickly, was that the plastic Holt self bailers (without Stainless steel protective shroud) were badly placed just where the crew would 'kick off' from and would easily get broken thereby turning the footwells into permanent paddling pools!
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by oldarn

 

I vaguely remember it. How many were made?  It might be considered semi double bottomed. I assume it was complicated and/or expensive to make and most likely too heavy  but otherwise seemed a good compromise.

We considered a semi-double bottom for the AltO to the back of the c/b box, but for little gain in terms of carrying less water within and at  the expense of less comfort, less stiffness and heavier.

  
Mine was awarded a number at the end of the production run - no. 32.

Production boats were reasonably light at 82kg for the hull, considering that it was a 15.5ft boat in the days before foam sandwich reinforcement. It was just two mouldings, so not especially complicated to make; clearly the bailers added some construction time and expense, but were well worth it for the footwell benefits I outlined above.

I can't imagine how you felt that a double bottom - with the box construction that implies - could lead to less stiffness. Stiffness is one reason some classes that have the choice adopt d-b's.
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Andymac

I believe 32 were made.
I was lucky enough to cut my teeth in no. 32.
It really was a very forgiving boat for learning to trapeze and spinnaker.
One point about the shallow crew footwells, which did drain very quickly, was that the plastic Holt self bailers (without Stainless steel protective shroud) were badly placed just where the crew would 'kick off' from and would easily get broken thereby turning the footwells into permanent paddling pools!

Wow, so 32 ended up in a good home (at some point at least)! When did you sail her? Any idea where she is now?

As you say, the bailers themselves left something to be desired, but a change of bailer supplier would have sorted that had more boats been produced. But the class suffered a lot of flak from the established Fireball and Hornet classes, not a lot of commitment from Holt, who had been asked by the Snipe Class PRO to come up with the design who then in turn ran into a lot of flak from within the conservative Snipe class. 

A pair of young Snipers visiting Holt's boat show stand in 1970 or so were reported to have been aghast that it "was just like a Flying Dutchman". I remember wondering how that could be anything but positive, from the Snipe perspective!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 6:24pm
Well, 32 was bought by a Petty Officer (Instructor) in the Sea Cadets around '75 (just checked my old RYA logbook!). At the time I was a spotty teen Cadet and was given pretty much a free reign to thrash around in it with a fellow Cadet whenever we cared to. Compared to the Bosuns and Mirror dinghies I had sailed up to that point, it was a revelation. I noted the 'divot' out of the trailing edge of the centreboard in the picture, could that be No.32 then? I remember the board pivot was on a kind of 'stirrup' inside the plate housing, which when it came loose would migrate backwards catching the centreboard on the housing. I don't know what became of it after '78 when he replaced it with a Fireball. If ever I see a Jacksnipe come up for sale on ebay, I would be sorely tempted for old times sake... Or would that be like revisiting your first kiss? felt great at the time but would be rather clumsy now Ermm.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 6:36pm
what goes around comes around. James Jarvey has been building a couple phantoms with that same semi double floor just this year number1400 is one of them
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 6:40pm
I sold Jacksnipe 32 to a chap in Essex around 1972...

The centreboard stirrup was the same as Holts used in the Enterprise, and was indeed a pain. I think RS500's use something similar today; maybe their tolerances are closer.

If the class were alive and suitably developed (frp, asymmetric) today, I'd buy one. With the Snipe rig, they were undercanvassed for the wetted area, so slow in light airs but a blast in a blow (sounds quite modern, eh?!). The 3000 is the closest spiritual successor, albeit a little smaller, so through Hornet, Snipe, Fireball, 505, FD, 420 (female crews start here), Laser 2, and a brief revisit to the 'Ball, I'm back more or less where I started!

So, the floor arrangement is back in Phants - you can't keep a good idea down!


Edited by Medway Maniac - 13 Oct 11 at 6:42pm
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 6:57pm
I can't resist: more Jacksnipe pics. But this really was a superb design, killed by politics.





The last photo shows the Holt 'works' boat in the Burnham Icicle, with (I believe) a hairy Michael McNamara at the helm...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

I sold Jacksnipe 32 to a chap in Essex around 1972...
 
My 'sponsor' must have been the next owner after that...in Essex.
I first sailed it on the Blackwater, then it done a turn on a couple of old gravel pit 'puddles' @ Grangewaters (Ockendon) and Stubbers (Upminster).
 
The design was indeed a victim of politics.
 
It makes you wonder what the designers of yester years would come up with now with the use of modern materials, manufacturing techniques and all the lessons learnt.
I would love to see what Uffa could do.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac


I can't imagine how you felt that a double bottom - with the box construction that implies - could lead to less stiffness. Stiffness is one reason some classes that have the choice adopt d-b's.


The Rondar construction design for their boats attaches the tank side directly to the floor thus giving an I beam type stiffness strength. Often double bottomed boats separate the floor from the hull with polystyrene without naming classes,. thus giving extra weight without solid stiffness and so limiting the time before hull stiffness breakdown.
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