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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Whinging Thread
    Posted: 06 Apr 11 at 7:13pm
Rich there is a bit more to it then that.  But warts n all reviews are very much needed in this industry.  

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ASok View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ASok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 11 at 5:29pm
No cats on the classes listings.  Its a shame that his shopping around obviously went so badly.  That Dart 16 he sailed must have been a real shocker.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 11 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Stuart O

Chris
 
I actually think James has a valid point about "anyone (who) expects a boat designed in the 70's to compete with facebook, MSN, booze, sex, coursework, Glee club and tuition fees shows a total lack of empathy with the future generation".  apart from I would expand that to sailing not just a 70s designed boat. IMHO most national authorities have focused their resources on the few at the top..hoping that parents/clubs would find a way of getting the youth involved, that has lead to a reduction in those coming into the sport...this is fact, I believe that the RYA have got the figures 15-25% less sailors in the last 5 years.
The RYA have set up schemes which Im sure after 2012 will all colapse due to lack of funding...but that is for a different thread and not for this one
Completely agree that there are problems with the narrow focus on squads.  However, there are certainly logical reasons to think that a boat like the Laser could fit the Facebook generation very well.  For example, one "expert's" book on the Facebook generation lists 10 characteristics, of which about 4 indicate (to me) that they would prefer a Laser and 1 or 2, max, indicate they would prefer a high performance craft.

As an example, "instant gratification" is often said to be a Facebook generation ideal - but how "instant" is spending the years you need to spend to learn how to sail a high-performance skiff type???  In every way from rigging to actually learning how to sail around a course, the Laser type fits the instant gratification model better than a high-performance dinghy does.  

 I have no idea how old you are or how well connected you are to Facebook kids, but it's easy to see that for today's (often) less active kids, with their busy lives, it's easy to see that a simple craft can work better.  One of my nephews stopped racing his skiff trainer at the world's biggest Skiff club because he was sick of stuffing around through the complicated rigging process when he could instead by doing a whole lot of other things - why people assume that kids today have more time to spend rigging and training baffles me TBH.  

As an analogy, there's a lot of Facebook Generation guys riding around these days on simple, slow, retro fixed-gear bikes (=Laser??) and ignoring fast carbon TT bikes (= skiff??).  We've got one around at the moment, belonging to a random boyfriend (our daughter's boyfriend, that is, not mine).  As usual there's four teens in the place; our 21 year old, who has been coding at Google while on holidays from his comp sci scholarship, is living near uni and has attracted seed venture capital for his own social networking idea.  The idea that no one who favours Lasers knows the Facebook generation is a joke to those of us who have spent years bringing up these kids, and their friends, through all the tears and joys of their lives.

The class I ran until recently has now become 25% teens, including many of the top kids in the major training fleets for the Skiff clubs. This class is about as fast as a Laser Radial, yet it attracts many of the elite of the skiff juniors - that alone demonstrates that they are not all in favour of fast craft.

Just like the Cherub kids I spent the weekend racing against, they regularly strike me (and their parents) by how similar they are on the water to earlier generations - they just wanna have fun, and that can mean anything from blasting at speed to sticking five kids on a Cherub in a drifter.

If there was a drop-off in kids over the last 5 years, surely that tells us that the attempts to bring in youth Skiffs and youth cats (which came in around that period) have done nothing to lift numbers, therefore fast boats are not the key to youth retention.  Anyone who looks at some of the collapsing youth fleets in some Skiff clubs here could also say that.  Hell, the Moth fleet here lost about 10% of its members in a single year, does that mean that Moths are bad for kids?????

IMHO we can all sit here and theorise about what the Facebook generation wants in a boat - the plain and simple fact is that when the theorising stops, most kids end up sailing slow simple SMODs and it doesn't seem to be the youth where numbers are dropping off - the disappearing segment in dinghy sailing seems to be the adults in trap boats.

Basically, to assume that all modern kids are clones with the same desires in boats is seriously under-rating them, and assuming that they all want faster boats is a baseless assumption.  We've got a very good experiment going on down here where Skiff clubs promote and subsidise Skiff trainers and guess what - they have the same youth drop-off problem as conventional boats and every other sport.  

When someone says that anyone who doesn't agree with them has a psychiatric condition, you've got to doubt their sanity....

BTW, despite what James apparently thinks, recent science has discovered that this is not the first generation of teenagers to be interested in sex, drugs, music and technology.... Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 11 at 4:18pm
Chris, I agree. That's a well thought out and balanced point of view.

I think that the biggest problem for kids getting into sailing these days is that they either get no support at all or get carted off by the RYA to be the next olympic hero - there's no middle ground. They never seem to get put into a little boat and allowed to get on with it at their own pace, which was very much the good bit about the whole thing from my point of view when I was a kid.

None of which has anything to do with Lasers, of course. There may be some fair criticisms of the boat, but it seems a bit unreasonable to sl*g it off just because it gets used by the RYA's youth subversion dept   Smile
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ob1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 11 at 4:24pm
i cant believe you guys are still posting on this 'whinging' thread - havent you got better things to do?

Edited by ob1 - 11 Apr 11 at 4:24pm
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 11 at 5:20pm
The rumour is, and I cannot fully substantiate it, but you can't have a serious discussion about it here any longer for fear of getting some septic tank lawyers trying to crawl up your orifice.. Hence the mass exodus.
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 11 at 5:38pm
Or abusive PM's, Sarcastic quoted posts claiming you don't know what your talking about, if your lucky you just get some statistical nonsese chucked at you. Wink lol

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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 11 at 5:59pm
Let the lawyers come I say, I have seen the derision they have been treated with on another site which is discussing a very similar subject to this. They probably didn't realise the guy was on a different continent....
Paul
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Stuart O View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 11 at 8:21pm
Yeah...we let the lawyers in witrh Chris...so its ok...lol
 
Chris in reply to your balanced thoughts I would like to add that I always love going to Aus where there is a limited number of classes. IMHO we should look towards narrowing the number classes in the market, this way we arent diluting the mix. I am a strong supporter than the more of one class on the water attracts people, kids seeing kids having fun they wanna follow suit. This is were the laser scored so well in the 70s, lots of boats and lots having fun
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 11 at 5:03pm
Here's what Chris is talking about.  Last Sunday da yoof thought he would try my moth (low rider) and race it in the afternoon race.  Unfortunately (though not for the spectators on the bank) he capsized so many times on leaving shore he never made it even close to the start line.  Rather than try to master sailing it (he simply needed to sit down and keep still - it was light) he ran off and jumped in his topper, then went on to win the last race.  He now thinks the moth is a bad boat and loves his topper even more!
the same, but different...

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