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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 8:49am

I meant to add "Thanks Jim, I'd like to take you up on that offer". 

Also, I don't think I've made this explicitly clear, but the way I envisage it is that once you have bought your boat from whichever manufacturer you chose you can't then tinker with it (beyond the usual SMOD restrictions).  In other words if you buy the RS400 you can't then get flatter sails made by someone else, or change the mast etc.  Equally if you chose Toppers offering, you can't modify that.  Your choice of design is made upfront.  The only exception to this would be if a manufacurer made a "class" change that changed the design of that particular sub-class of boat, in which case existing owners could upgrade,  i.e. design changes are made on a "sub-class" basis by the manufacturer, not by individual sailors to individual boats.
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Hector View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Chew my RS

I meant to add "Thanks Jim, I'd like to take you up on that offer". 

Also, I don't think I've made this explicitly clear, but the way I envisage it is that once you have bought your boat from whichever manufacturer you chose you can't then tinker with it (beyond the usual SMOD restrictions).  In other words if you buy the RS400 you can't then get flatter sails made by someone else, or change the mast etc.  Equally if you chose Toppers offering, you can't modify that.  Your choice of design is made upfront.  The only exception to this would be if a manufacurer made a "class" change that changed the design of that particular sub-class of boat, in which case existing owners could upgrade,  i.e. design changes are made on a "sub-class" basis by the manufacturer, not by individual sailors to individual boats.

This was getting interesting, but I don't agree with the restrictions you propose above - what would be the point in restricting sail type for instance. I think Jim has it about right. Other big issues might include materials . Carbon, epoxy, kevlar etc are not the usual domain of the mass builders so allowing them, whilst desirable in many ways, may limit their participation. Sails with a Carbon scrim are a fraction of the weight of standard and if allowed would give an immediate advantage regardless of other factors. Plenty of food for thought - and I think you'll have a hard time getting any major builders to join in, not least as they could be frightened of not coming up with the best design / materials / rig / sailors and thus getting a reputation as slow / poor / rubbish etc - too much to lose, too little to gain.

I wish you luck but as they say on the Dragons Den, 'I won't be investing'



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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 1:34pm


Originally posted by JimC

The formula 18 is one of the most popular Cat classes in the UK, the concept must have some legs...
 

How did F18 come about - was it the chicken (the rule) or the egg (a number of different designs)?

Rick
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HOW FORMULA 18 DID COME ON EARTH
By Olivier BOVYN, President of the International Formula 18 Class Association

For many years, and with the exception of the "A" and Tornado Classes, sport catamaran sailing has been linked to manufacturer classes. From club level to the largest events, racing on corrected time was the only way to allow different designs to compete, with sometimes endless discussions about the timetable or yardsticks used to do so.

Off this reason, we started to work, through the catamaran section created in 1985 by the French Sailing Federation, on a rating system based on a set of IOMR formulas, further to the Pacific Multihull Association system. With the support of various European National Authorities, this job lead in 1992 to the implementation of the SCHRS, Small Catamaran Handicap Rating System, which is since under the umbrella of ISAF.

A clear need for racing on elapsed time appeared with the first long distance race sailed in China Sea, organised by Gérard d'Aboville (the man who crossed over the Ocean by rowing). It was then agreed with Pierre-Charles BARRAUD, FFV Technical Officer, to fix one single rating for the whole fleet, with some success.

Following this very first event, a CataWorld Cup circuit was created, using the ICCA measurement regulations written by Yves LODAY and some other competitors, but these rules lead to a majority of expensive "One off" boats, hindering any further large development.

In order to broaden the access to elapsed time racing to a maximum of catamaran sailors, Pierre-Charles BARRAUD and myself, as the executive of the FFV Catamaran Section, decided then to create in 1994 the Formula 18 using the SCHRS formulas to compute the performance parameters. The aim was the following :

- to provide fair racing for crews of various weights, from 115 to over 150 kgs, through the use of two different sail sizes of jibs and spinnakers, linked to the use of limited corrector weights ;
- to maintain competition between the manufacturers in order to keep the costs at the lowest level ;
- to allow mixed or female crews to compete on an equal basis in large male fleets ;
- to protect the interests of the club sailors through an actual measurement procedure.

This concept was probably a good one, as the class grew up so quickly that the ISAF Recognised Status was granted in 1996, eighteen months after the birth of the formula. Mainly European at the beginning, the Formula 18 is now spreading to Australia, New Zealand and North America, with not less than twelve different designs affordable on the market at the moment.

To conclude, Formula 18 sailing offers probably the best balance between cost and value, fairness and competition, to the wider range of crew statures.

Last but not least, the Class is extremely proud to welcome numerous Olympic sailors to the annual World Championship, as it is a clear assessment of the Formula 18 skill level.

All what you have ever expected in catamaran sailing will probably given to you by Formula 18. Numerous National Associations and sailing clubs are ready to welcome you, and I will be for sure very happy to meet you in some venue in the near future, if you decide to join our family.

Wishing you all the best, sincerely,

Olivier BOVYN


They were lucky in having a measurement rule to work from to give some soundness to the formula. Such a thing seems a lot more difficult in dinghies.
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 2:26pm

Originally posted by JimC


HOW FORMULA 18 DID COME ON EARTH
By Olivier BOVYN, President of the International Formula 18 Class Association

For many years, and with the exception of the "A" and Tornado Classes, sport catamaran sailing has been linked to manufacturer classes. From club level to the largest events, racing on corrected time was the only way to allow different designs to compete, with sometimes endless discussions about the timetable or yardsticks used to do so.

Off this reason, we started to work, through the catamaran section created in 1985 by the French Sailing Federation, on a rating system based on a set of IOMR formulas, further to the Pacific Multihull Association system. With the support of various European National Authorities, this job lead in 1992 to the implementation of the SCHRS, Small Catamaran Handicap Rating System, which is since under the umbrella of ISAF.

A clear need for racing on elapsed time appeared with the first long distance race sailed in China Sea, organised by Gérard d'Aboville (the man who crossed over the Ocean by rowing). It was then agreed with Pierre-Charles BARRAUD, FFV Technical Officer, to fix one single rating for the whole fleet, with some success.

Following this very first event, a CataWorld Cup circuit was created, using the ICCA measurement regulations written by Yves LODAY and some other competitors, but these rules lead to a majority of expensive "One off" boats, hindering any further large development.

In order to broaden the access to elapsed time racing to a maximum of catamaran sailors, Pierre-Charles BARRAUD and myself, as the executive of the FFV Catamaran Section, decided then to create in 1994 the Formula 18 using the SCHRS formulas to compute the performance parameters. The aim was the following :

- to provide fair racing for crews of various weights, from 115 to over 150 kgs, through the use of two different sail sizes of jibs and spinnakers, linked to the use of limited corrector weights ;
- to maintain competition between the manufacturers in order to keep the costs at the lowest level ;
- to allow mixed or female crews to compete on an equal basis in large male fleets ;
- to protect the interests of the club sailors through an actual measurement procedure.

This concept was probably a good one, as the class grew up so quickly that the ISAF Recognised Status was granted in 1996, eighteen months after the birth of the formula. Mainly European at the beginning, the Formula 18 is now spreading to Australia, New Zealand and North America, with not less than twelve different designs affordable on the market at the moment.

To conclude, Formula 18 sailing offers probably the best balance between cost and value, fairness and competition, to the wider range of crew statures.

Last but not least, the Class is extremely proud to welcome numerous Olympic sailors to the annual World Championship, as it is a clear assessment of the Formula 18 skill level.

All what you have ever expected in catamaran sailing will probably given to you by Formula 18. Numerous National Associations and sailing clubs are ready to welcome you, and I will be for sure very happy to meet you in some venue in the near future, if you decide to join our family.

Wishing you all the best, sincerely,

Olivier BOVYN


They were lucky in having a measurement rule to work from to give some soundness to the formula. Such a thing seems a lot more difficult in dinghies.

I think that shows the importance of the backing of the national body ... if the RYA were into this concept then I think it could be go'er...

Rick
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swiftsolo.org View Drop Down
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I have to say reading all this I am very impressed by the concept - it has won me over, the hard part would be defining the rules.

If it could be done it would be a wonderful way to stop fragmentation in the sport and increase participation levels. As has been pointed out it would be necessary to get national bodies involved in this at an early stage for the concept to have any chance of success.

BTW Rick the first MPS has arrived at RQ where I sail. Hopefully I will see it in action this weekend!! 
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 9:58am
Originally posted by swiftsolo.org

I have to say reading all this I am very impressed by the concept - it has won me over, the hard part would be defining the rules.

If it could be done it would be a wonderful way to stop fragmentation in the sport and increase participation levels. As has been pointed out it would be necessary to get national bodies involved in this at an early stage for the concept to have any chance of success.

BTW Rick the first MPS has arrived at RQ where I sail. Hopefully I will see it in action this weekend!! 

Where is RQ?
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Posts: 101 		Post Options Post Options   Quote swiftsolo.org Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 11:10am

It is RQYS  www.rqys.com.au Brisbane, Australia

A guy that sails a Hobie 16 has bought it but I think it is Jason Beebe? who is a pretty good I14 helm who is going to do the racing on the weekends.
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Posts: 84 		Post Options Post Options   Quote charlie w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 2:22pm

Sorry to join this discussion so late, but do I get it right that the general thrust of this thread is that limited development class rules provide longer lasting, better-built, larger and more competitive fleets than the current SMOD?

There are of course classes that could have told you this before (any of Fastsail covers just our category)

BTW, the 505's training in out in Hayling Bay yesterday were the only boats outside.  We didn't feel out of date, out-moded etc, slow or any of the above.  In fact we felt fast as hell; high-performing; balanced; powerful; controlled and well built.

Similarly the week before when Russ and Andy Short finished 4th in the Tiger Trophy at the other end of the spectrum in not much wind at all at Rutland.

Sorry for the rant, but for a boat that sails to (an ever-dropping) handicap in just about every wind condition, we do seem to be everyone's choice of as quotable example of an out moded-design.

Charlie W

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by charlie w

Sorry to join this discussion so late, but do I get it right that the general thrust of this thread is that limited development class rules provide longer lasting, better-built, larger and more competitive fleets than the current SMOD?


I'd say its more on the lines of "Can we work out of way of getting boats of different shapes racing together that would have more mass manufacturer buy-in, and maybe reduce the problems of new classes being started and then failing.".

I'nm putting stuff together for a draft rule framework, and doing some thinking, but I've come to the conclusion that I need to go round an RS400 and maybe a 59er with a tape measure before I do very much in order to get some base numbers. My thinking is that for a non-trapeze boat the rule should probably fit an RS400 and a 59er scaled down to the same sort of size, but possibly be a bit wider on the deck.

Edited by JimC
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