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How windy is too windy
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423zero View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 6:48pm
 Back 10 yards  LOL
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 5:43pm
Back 10 yards ...
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 5:25pm
I can picture RO being surrounded by racers waving their arms about, similar to footballers round the referee, ungentlemanly conduct anyone ?
It's all about the RO's right to manage.
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 3:22pm
Peter G- that's put the case pretty much spot on there.

Under the umbrella of the rules, there is a clear breakdown of how an event is organized. A class will go to a club wanting an event and once agreement is reached, that club then become the Organizing Authority. They then appoint a Race Committee, the head of which may (but doesn't have to be) the RO. This distinction is vital, for it ensures that there is a clear stage of separation between the class and the Race Team. If the Class doesn't like something, they go to the Club who are the Organizing Authority, for the RO answers to them, NOT the class.

This independence is vital, as I've seen at first hand what happens when the Class think that they can twist the tail of the Race Team, for down that road lays chaos.

heading back to the original post, it was a comment on one RO at one club, made by one individual - though he goes on to quote hearsay. An RO may drop the ball one day, after all, they are only human, but if this becomes evidence of a systematic failing, then either the club are too weak to re-assign him or the class is too weak - for not saying "sort out these issues or we will go elsewhere". Or, it is just one individual viewpoint that has now run on past 70 or more posts.
There are lots of very good RO's out there, often getting little reward, more often getting rocks hurled from people who think that they could do the job so much better, but strangely, never do!

Dougal
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by A2Z

  
I understand what you are saying but it isn’t about arse covering and lawyers, it’s about not putting undue influence on people to take themselves outside of their comfort (or more specifically, safety) zone. 
But I do think, it's still personal choice. 

And I also feel that the threshold for fair racing is generally lower than the safety threshold. I could nurse an 800 back to the beach in 30 knots, maybe with a few splashes. I'd be a bit fearful of breakages as it's really designed for much lower winds. 

But actually, in amateur sailing, most people are full depowered just over 20 knots. At 25 knots no one is judging shifts or gusts, or any of the traditional tests. It becomes a lottery of how your kit holds up and your boat handling. If a class or race officer determined that the racing wasn't fair, I'd accept it.  

Originally posted by A2Z

If the Rescue helms don’t feel confident to handle a RIB in a sea state 4 they should feel able to say so, and not be pressured into manning up just because you want a race.
 
Absolutely. Individuals if they don't feel safe should be able to say so and take a step back. They should not accept the RO decision for their own. 

Originally posted by A2Z

If the RO thinks it quite conceivable that his race team will be overwhelmed with Rescue work they should have the call on whether to hold the race or not. 
This I find quite hard to predict. Capsizes and breakages rarely overwhelm a rescue team. Pull the people from the water and sort the boats later, or claim on insurance. 

Injuries and crews separated from boats are the real things that really need rescue crews. Even when half the fleet is over these situation are pretty rare. But I would have long have stopped the racing on fairness grounds.  

Originally posted by A2Z

 Equally, if you are lying second in the 800 nationals with one race to go
Not an issue if you win with a day to spare  Wink

But, as a competitive person, I am sympathetic to this point. But I just think at dinghy racing is some way from baiting competitive people to do dangerous things. 

What's your view on the golden globe race? 


Edited by mozzy - 03 Sep 18 at 3:17pm
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 823 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 2:53pm
There's an important difference between people going sailing on their own, and own responsibility and as part of an organised race. I don't think anyone here is suggesting stopping anyone doing the former - though they might be strongly advised against it sometimes.

But once you (as an RO, a committee or a club) organise an event, be it club racing or an open, you are taking on some responsibility. And competitors will not be judging whether to launch or not on the basis they might on their own, they will do it in the knowledge that there will be support boats on the water, and on the assumption that the RO have made some sort of judgement of suitability of the conditions. I'd not disagree that the primary responsibility lies with the individual crews, but it's not possible as an organising club or RO to simply say they have no responsibility for safety.
Peter
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johnr View Drop Down
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Posts: 34 		Post Options Post Options   Quote johnr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 2:42pm
Safety has been improving in sailing for my 25+ years of doing it. In the beginning the club had 1 rib, 2 dories and a little cabin fishing boat just about able to keep up with an optimist. In a modern club they will have a fleet of decent ribs with modern 4 stroke reliable outboards and often paid rescue cover for club racing. The awareness of entrapment leading to drowning has decreased response times from rescue crews. In general sailing is as safe as is reasonably practicable.

The secondary issue with the above is that at some point people need to accept some risk otherwise no sailing event could be run. I am a big fan of the line in your sailing instructions that the safety of the boat and the crew is the responsibility of the helm/owner of the boat. RO will generally step in to abandon racing when they can see that the bulk of the fleet is struggling and therefore the rescue crews are struggling. Generally RO's are pretty good at making judgement calls either prior to going afloat or whilst on the water. We as sailors need to be adults about it and ensure that we keep ourselves safe if we want to continue to enjoy a pastime based on nature and the elements. At present most classes or age specific event wind limits are sensible and based on the ability of the participants.
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by A2Z

. Equally, if you are lying second in the 800 nationals with one race to go and you need to beat the series leader in the last race, both you and your crew will feel under more pressure to do that race even if the conditions are beyond what you feel is safe. 
 

That pressure is not the fault of the race officer and it is down to the competitor(s) to make unclouded judgements.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by mozzy

I don't think treating either of my regular crews as children who aren't capable of making their own decisions would go down well. In return I expect them to accept the personal responsibility that goes with that and not sue me.  

Where the average person can see adults making decisions about acceptable risks in their pastimes, lawyers see a complex web of lovely fees and 'duty of care'. 
I understand what you are saying but it isn’t about arse covering and lawyers, it’s about not putting undue influence on people to take themselves outside of their comfort (or more specifically, safety) zone.  If the Rescue helms don’t feel confident to handle a RIB in a sea state 4 they should feel able to say so, and not be pressured into manning up just because you want a race. If the RO thinks it quite conceivable that his race team will be overwhelmed with Rescue work they should have the call on whether to hold the race or not. Equally, if you are lying second in the 800 nationals with one race to go and you need to beat the series leader in the last race, both you and your crew will feel under more pressure to do that race even if the conditions are beyond what you feel is safe. 
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 18 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by piglet

The RO must have a duty of care to anyone in his employ, paid or otherwise.
This then would extend to his volunteer RIB crews etc. It must be safe for the race team.
Plus the RO must be satisfied that the umbrella of safety cover is adequate for the day& the fleet.
However entrants over 18 do so in compliance with the RRS and sign to accept this so RRS4 can't be ignored in court.
Yes the RO would be required to make his case in court but I would hope wouldn't be held liable because someone sailed who shouldn't have.
As a competitor it is hard sometimes to stand up and admit you're not up to it but as a responsible adult that is exactly what you must do. To go sailing when you know you or your kit is not up to it is then putting risk onto others by ultimately tying up rescue cover.

Exactly.

D-Zero Highcliffe nationals. I felt right out of my depth at times, the waves were epic (but fun). I didn't sail a full series as I could feel myself getting too tired and starting to make silly mistakes so I went ashore, I wasn't the only one to do so either.

15-20kts wind over tide and some big waves, hardly extreme but too much for some.

When I am doing rescue it is people first boats later if we get multiple capsizes. I will argue the toss later in the bar (and have done so).
Paul
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