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fudheid View Drop Down
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Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Match Racing in Handicap fleets
    Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think you are over analysing this folks. Sailing someone else down the fleet is basically allowed.

However...

Rule 2 is a fundamental rule and it never turns off. But it also has a pretty high bar.

2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized
principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized
under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles
have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be
excluded from the boat’s series score.


OK, so recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play always apply. Agreed?

OK, so would it be in acordance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and *fair play* for a 49er to cover an Oppie out of a race? Talk to the man in the street or anyone else and I reckon you'll get a no.
On the other hand is it legitimate between two boats of different classes but almost exactly the same speed?
I'd say clearly yes.

OK, so somewhere between the two is a large gray area, and the rule says "clearly", so a gray area won't do. But at some point I think covering a boat of much slower performance breaches recognised principles of sportsmanship or fair play: probably at the point where the performance is so disaprate that no amount of skill on the part of the covered boat can get them clear.

But basically its down to a Protest committee, and if I were on that PC I'd bump it straight up to the RYA for confirmation...

Ohh this reminds me of the ac in 1985? dennis connors winged cat v's kiwi big boat. went to court over 'fair and equal contest' and got chucked (obviously different rulesbeing the ac but similar).
Also you never see this happen in cowes week or you do you? i know the dayboats tend to have different courses but often have the same first mark. I have never seen one boat attempt to sail a different fleet boat down for the chance to win white group (and thats for a rolex!) 
Does that mean yachties have kept more of the corinthian spirit than us dinghies guys???
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by blaze720

'Legal' or not ....but is it 'acceptable' in a largely amateur sport and at a handicap event should be the question posed and addressed.  If it is totally 'acceptable' then it is indeed a sad day for all. 

If I was sponsoring the series or event I'd withdraw all support until such practices were satisfactorily outlawed.   Anyone benefitting should should think about  donating any 'gains' to a suitable charity imo.

Mike L.
 
+1
Oh dear. Another year, another SJ controversy.
 
For what it is worth , my viewpoint is that a faster boat starting in a separate start 5 minutes ahead of a rival in a seperate start, has been given an obvious advantage, in that it could apply a very dubious tactic against the slower boat. If the start sequences were reversed, the opportunity would probably not have presented itself until very near the end of the race (if at all).
I think it is totally out of order, and wouldn't be suprised if SJ drop their association after all the hard work they have put in. What a shame.
 
Where will it all end? Maybe we could have team racing flights forfeiting there own race, holding back and joining the melee against a rival team starting later...as long as they are on the same leg of the course!!! Sorry, what a load of B*11*£&$!!!
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Jon711 View Drop Down
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Posts: 465 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 1:45pm
Ben, any chance of chasing the RYA for an answer, I will be DRO at some multiclass events this year, would be nice to know the legalities......

Jon
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 2:00pm
Who remembers who came second?

Match race, threaten, bribe, swindle, protest and pump your way to first, climb the podium grab the pots and prizes and get your family to take photo's, they'll be soooooo proud.



.. or go out to have a good time, enjoy your boat and the racing and have a beer afterwards (or 3), just let the numb-n*ts who want to do this stuff get on with it
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by fudheid

Ohh this reminds me of the ac in 1985? dennis connors winged cat v's kiwi big boat. went to court over 'fair and equal contest' and got chucked (obviously different rulesbeing the ac but similar).

Very different. Nothing to do with the Racing Rules (which are the same for the AC as any other event) and all to do with the American legal system.
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laser4000 View Drop Down
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Posts: 589 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 7:03pm
who are the guys in the Furball? What club do they sail for

I've got no issue with a bit of Match Racing to win the Merlin Nationals (or any other nationals), but to do it against a slower boat in the first race of a 'fun' event without much at stake..

Poor show chaps. I hope they don't have the brass neck to turn up to the prize giving..


Edited by laser4000 - 28 Feb 12 at 7:33pm
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iansmithofotley View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by laser4000

who are the guys in the Furball? What club do they sail for

I've got no issue with a bit of Match Racing to win the Merlin Nationals (or any other nationals), but to do it against a slower boat in the first race of a 'fun' event without much at stake..

Poor show chaps. I hope they don't have the brass neck to turn up to the prize giving..

Hi laser 4000,

http://www.roostersailing.com/wordpress/?p=2264

The beginning of the second paragraph make interesting reading.  He also sails Miracles.  I wonder how he would have felt if he had been in a Miracle and a Phantom had pulled this stroke on him.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)
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andy101 View Drop Down
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Posts: 176 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andy101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:39pm
Rightly(not that I think it was) or wrongly it may have been a decision made on the basis of the conditions on the day & they felt assuming broadly equally matched crew a Fireball wasn't going to beat a Phantom in a light breeze on handicap....................not sure why he was worried about a laser though?? Wink
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 823 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:58pm
Handicap events can’t be taken too seriously

Do you think it's supposed to be irony? Or what are they like when they are taking it seriously? Confused
Peter
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laser4000 View Drop Down
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Posts: 589 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by iansmithofotley

Originally posted by laser4000

who are the guys in the Furball? What club do they sail for


Hi laser 4000,

http://www.roostersailing.com/wordpress/?p=2264

The beginning of the second paragraph make interesting reading.  He also sails Miracles.  I wonder how he would have felt if he had been in a Miracle and a Phantom had pulled this stroke on him.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)


So he's a rooster jockey then? I wonder what Mr. Cockerill thinks of his brand representation? 

Although reading the reference to 'exam's' in the blog i guess the errant furball sailor is some kind of student, so it could be possible to chalk up his match racing to 'over-enthusiasm perhaps?' - although doing it on race one (and hanging around 5 minutes to do so is still pretty p-poor for a winter warm-up event IMHO)
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