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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Jun 22 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

I really don't have an issue with changes per se.

It's just that with every change (and there have been many incremental changes) there is the same assertion that there is no performance improvement.

It's the boat that always stays one step ahead of the slow to adapt PY numbers.  Great marketing strategy.......I'd probably do the same. Wink LOL

Err these days the py system is quick to react as they use real race time data. So if a class really gets faster is shows . As I mentioned Supernovas, they took 25 pounds out of the boat and loads of slow sailors joined the class so the py got a little better  Smile
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 22 at 9:45pm
I really don't have an issue with changes per se.

It's just that with every change (and there have been many incremental changes) there is the same assertion that there is no performance improvement.

It's the boat that always stays one step ahead of the slow to adapt PY numbers.  Great marketing strategy.......I'd probably do the same. Wink LOL

Edited by Sussex Lad - 11 Jun 22 at 9:46pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 22 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

 

Quick question that's been asked before: When does a one design become a development class?


When individuals are able to make changes to hull, rig, foils etc without needing a class vote.  You can’t put any mast you like on a Blaze, or any sail, or indeed any sailmaker.  You can’t put a different rudder on the back.  You can’t design your hull or pick your builder.  Name a class that has never updated anything?

You can do all of those things, it just means your 'Blaze' ceases to be a Blaze Class Dinghy.
Like you can put a Rooster 8'n'a bit rig on a Laser and race it as a PY boat. You can put foils on it if you want. The owners of the 'design rights' can't control what owners do with it. Class associations may be embedded with manufacturers, but there's nothing to stop a bunch of owners forming a new class association where people race hulls sold as Lasers, or RS600s with foils. You can buy a class yacht like an X-99, change the rig and race it under IRC. Some CA's are bound by the RYA or WS due to being adopted National or International Classes. When you buy a boat to race, if you want to go beyond club PY races, you need to buy into the class's 'ethos' and rules and MO, or pick a different class.
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 22 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

 

Quick question that's been asked before: When does a one design become a development class?


When individuals are able to make changes to hull, rig, foils etc without needing a class vote.  You can’t put any mast you like on a Blaze, or any sail, or indeed any sailmaker.  You can’t put a different rudder on the back.  You can’t design your hull or pick your builder.  Name a class that has never updated anything?
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 22 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Moderate improvements:, voted on democratically by the class in a open and honest manner … what’s not to like?

Totally agree with you , that doesn’t happen often does it  LOL. All one design have to adapt or die/ or become a niche boat. 

But the thing is not all moderate improvements are voted on democratically by a class in a open and honest manner. 
1) Some are just waved though by a class. ( which is not necessary wrong )
2) Some are forced on a class by a manufacturer that owns the design rights. Like the new mk3 cockpit design on Lightning 368 or the weight change to the Supernova. Don’t get me wrong , I am not saying the changes were wrong just the fact the class had no control over the change .  
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 22 at 10:31am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Moderate improvements:, voted on democratically by the class in a open and honest manner … what’s not to like?


Absolutely, no quibble with that at all and I think its's a great little boat

......it's that the litany "no improvement to performance" is getting a little predictable.  Who knows? it may well be true in this case.

Maybe I'm just getting old and cynical LOL

It would be interesting to see a list of modifications (I'll not call them improvements Wink) since Topper dropped it........again, I'm getting old and I've lost count.

Edited by Sussex Lad - 11 Jun 22 at 10:34am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 22 at 10:21am
Moderate improvements:, voted on democratically by the class in a open and honest manner … what’s not to like?
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 22 at 9:31am
Originally posted by Cirrus

looks like the top batten is different? If it is , that’s a little more than ‘ cosmetic’


As it makes damn all difference to performance


Another alteration to the Blaze that makes no difference to performance? There's been a few of them over the last 12 years or so. LOL 

Without mentioning the elephant in the room (it start with P and ends with Y) it's difficult to discuss this any further I guess Wink

Quick question that's been asked before: When does a one design become a development class?
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 22 at 4:50pm
Err its still a change to the sail plan which I am sure you all voted on , because it’s not like Hartleys have any past history of imposing changes on the classes they own whether the class wants it or not is it  LOL Wink

Edited by Grumpycat - 10 Jun 22 at 4:51pm
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 22 at 2:48pm
looks like the top batten is different? If it is , that’s a little more than ‘ cosmetic’


As it makes damn all difference to performance either way it's main real benefit may be that it is apparently lower cost to produce..  Some like the darker material, some do not...  This picture was taken about a year ago and today about 50+% of boats at Stone SC currently for the Nationals will most likely sport a 'new' version  (10th to 12th inclusive).  At my weight I cannot see any advantage/disadvantage against a 12 month old North - I'm lucky as I like both sails equally. ... But erm .....slightly maybe less lucky in that I have to be at a wedding tomorrow !!


Edited by Cirrus - 10 Jun 22 at 2:48pm
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