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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nice new Laser for Christmas
    Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 10:46pm
That was my thought too Chris- poor decision, poor back tracking and treating customers and the public like mugs
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 10:39pm
There are always two sides.  You have suggested elsewhere that I have a conflict of interests because my wife works for the RS Class Association.  I will repeat what I have said in that thread.  That in no way influences my posts here.

I see the other side of the coin though: you are clearly part of the DZero Class Association.  So every post you make about either boat comes in that context.  You are part of a marketing machine, whether you recognise it, or not.  Marketing machines aren't just commercial.

So don't be surprised if I'm prepared to stand up and challenge your challenge.
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by kneewrecker

I reserve the right to still think was a horrendously cynical, and therefore failed, marketing attempt... 

For that I am told, I am a conspiracy theorist.  

 Whereas I'd say... no, sorry guys, the probability that there was a 'problem with the copy to the marketing department' affecting this specific class, right now, this Christmas, about two very specific boat variables: 1) hull weight and 2) mast rake,  in the face of this document below reaching the public domain, is rather too much of a stretch- even for me.

But do make your own mind up... you're all more than welcome to your opinion that they're not bullsh*ting us if you want.  

One wonders if the person who does the copywriting (and may well also empty the dustbins, lug boats and do the book-keeping if it's a small operation) just had a momentary lapse of reason.... I can imagine someone trying to finish off small jobs on a Friday night and thinking "oh, promising ideal mast rake and weight will spark the punters' interest" and not pausing to consider the issues involved.

Exactly why the Laser builders haven't provided independent information about tolerances is an interesting question. There could also be some very interesting studies, such as double-blind testing of boats with different rakes and weights. I've seen no evidence of the rumoured differences in boatspeed but surely the rumours are not good for the class.




Chris I agree with you here, but like I said I think it needs to be handled properly by the class.  I think the mast rake differences and weight (if there are any and I am not saying there are) are more of a placebo effect on sailors.  
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

I reserve the right to still think was a horrendously cynical, and therefore failed, marketing attempt... 

For that I am told, I am a conspiracy theorist.  

 Whereas I'd say... no, sorry guys, the probability that there was a 'problem with the copy to the marketing department' affecting this specific class, right now, this Christmas, about two very specific boat variables: 1) hull weight and 2) mast rake,  in the face of this document below reaching the public domain, is rather too much of a stretch- even for me.

But do make your own mind up... you're all more than welcome to your opinion that they're not bullsh*ting us if you want.  

One wonders if the person who does the copywriting (and may well also empty the dustbins, lug boats and do the book-keeping if it's a small operation) just had a momentary lapse of reason.... I can imagine someone trying to finish off small jobs on a Friday night and thinking "oh, promising ideal mast rake and weight will spark the punters' interest" and not pausing to consider the issues involved.

Exactly why the Laser builders haven't provided independent information about tolerances is an interesting question. There could also be some very interesting studies, such as double-blind testing of boats with different rakes and weights. I've seen no evidence of the rumoured differences in boatspeed but surely the rumours are not good for the class.
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 10:22pm
Well that's an interesting post, why don't you post the details on the forum.  Or are you just interested in picking fights with people?  Because as yet all I see is you trying to call people out.  Revisiting the 300 eps sh*t fight maybe something really interesting for people to read and understand.  Hell it's proof that the better boat one, bit like the 100 d1 debate...history has a funny way of repeating....makes you think doesn't it!

I don't twist or manipulate anything.  I am an early adopter! Much like you were.  I see similar things happening with the rs marketing machine that happened with the laser marketing machine all those years ago.  Diffence is I have the balls to stand up and challenge it despite people like you with hidden agendas trying to belittle or intimidate me.  The facts are Matt it doesn't.  I am happy in myself and what I type i beleive.  I have a very good job (if I do say so myself) in an industry I am respected in, I have a frankly beautiful wife and two very intelligent children both of which are proving to be like their mother (luckily) and good at anything they touch.  I also have plenty of friends who take me as I am, understand my failings but still call me for beers ....Life is pretty damn sweet for me.  So keep posting the smart ass comments, water of a ducks back.
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Null

Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by Null

Matt, think what you want, write in a nice agressive colour like red.  Be the wanna e forum hard man.  I am not the only one with well fittings caps.  The Internet forums did no damage with the eps vs 300 as frankly I. 1998 they simply did not exisist so stop pushing the bullsh*t round like a dung beetle because you have your own agendas.  Read the forums before making personal digs at people...I now see why some members of other fleets had such an opinion on you.  

I said nothing about forums....I said behaviour.  It was slower by word of mouth....but just as damaging in the long run.

I suppose I could have chosen a nice pale blue for contrast since I couldn't quite manage to quote both of you in one post, but I like red, and as James suggests it's kind of appropriate in this thread.

One man's aggression is another's not rolling over....

What's my agenda?

Where was my personal dig here?  The cap fits?  QED I'm afraid.

I suppose you could suggest I made one over on the Aero forum - in my view I just called you....

Again the irony is that I edited out the bit about preparing for a blast from the forums alpha males.

The eps 300 nonsense is so far removed from this Matt and you know it.  You could of just written in a normal colour like any other normal human being.  There is no way you used the red as some reflection of the content in this thread, I am sorry that is a hit beyond your posting style.  You havnt called me out, you just have a different opinion.  Yours is no more valid than mine im affraid. Irony is not lost on me Matt, it's ironic that your agressive posting style reflects how you react on and off the water....I am happy with what people think of me in my class and online.  I know how I come across and it's fine by me,  the question is are you?

I've only the washing up to look forward too - let's keep going shall we?

I genuinely don't think the EPS/300 thing is far removed from this.  I was an early 300 adopter, who was also sailing other classes.  So I heard what was being said around the bazaars secondhand.  There was significant evidence that it made a difference to the 300.  The EPS probably had the ascendancy for a while, especially with, then, big Laser marketing behind it.  The wheels fell off when things started to fall off the boats.

Now to the colour - I said I chose it for contrast.  I followed that with an implication that it might have had something to do with the thread.

Your right we do differ in our opinions.  We each have a right to it, that's true.  Equally I think that I have a right to point out where I think you are twisting/manipulating.  You think that is aggressive.  If I have to live with your opinion maybe you need to live with my posting style.

Oh and yes - I am happy.
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by Null

Matt, think what you want, write in a nice agressive colour like red.  Be the wanna e forum hard man.  I am not the only one with well fittings caps.  The Internet forums did no damage with the eps vs 300 as frankly I. 1998 they simply did not exisist so stop pushing the bullsh*t round like a dung beetle because you have your own agendas.  Read the forums before making personal digs at people...I now see why some members of other fleets had such an opinion on you.  

I said nothing about forums....I said behaviour.  It was slower by word of mouth....but just as damaging in the long run.

I suppose I could have chosen a nice pale blue for contrast since I couldn't quite manage to quote both of you in one post, but I like red, and as James suggests it's kind of appropriate in this thread.

One man's aggression is another's not rolling over....

What's my agenda?

Where was my personal dig here?  The cap fits?  QED I'm afraid.

I suppose you could suggest I made one over on the Aero forum - in my view I just called you....

Again the irony is that I edited out the bit about preparing for a blast from the forums alpha males.

The eps 300 nonsense is so far removed from this Matt and you know it.  You could of just written in a normal colour like any other normal human being.  There is no way you used the red as some reflection of the content in this thread, I am sorry that is a way beyond your posting style.  You havnt called me out, you just have a different opinion.  Yours is no more valid than mine im afraid. 

Irony is not lost on me Matt, it's ironic that your agressive posting style reflects how you react on and off the water....I am happy with what people think of me in my class and online.  I know how I come across and it's fine by me,  the question is are you?


Edited by Null - 03 Dec 14 at 10:03pm
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 9:58pm
Well I have asked for a group of officials from the RT(yping)Association and the UKF(orums)Class Association to come in and so some independent sampling to verify the data.  My fear is that it will be inconclusive whether any detectable speed difference is because of the chosen colour or other factors such as waves of nausea provoked by forum B*llsh*t.

Unfortunately they said they were too busy looking after real sailors needs to bother.  Which was just as well because the commercial reality was that I didn't give a d*mn.  Although I have given a minor telling off to the marketing department which suggested red was more eye catching in the first place.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 9:50pm
Can you type faster in red?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 14 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Null

Matt, think what you want, write in a nice agressive colour like red.  Be the wanna e forum hard man.  I am not the only one with well fittings caps.  The Internet forums did no damage with the eps vs 300 as frankly I. 1998 they simply did not exisist so stop pushing the bullsh*t round like a dung beetle because you have your own agendas.  Read the forums before making personal digs at people...I now see why some members of other fleets had such an opinion on you.  

I said nothing about forums....I said behaviour.  It was slower by word of mouth....but just as damaging in the long run.

I suppose I could have chosen a nice pale blue for contrast since I couldn't quite manage to quote both of you in one post, but I like red, and as James suggests it's kind of appropriate in this thread.

One man's aggression is another's not rolling over....

What's my agenda?

Where was my personal dig here?  The cap fits?  QED I'm afraid.

I suppose you could suggest I made one over on the Aero forum - in my view I just called you....

Again the irony is that I edited out the bit about preparing for a blast from the forums alpha males.
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