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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Joined: 09 Apr 14
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-Zero
    Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:55am
Graeme- I'd spend the 5 grand on pimping the living f*ck out of that EPS.  

Get it sanded down and professionally resprayed in utterly distasteful colours.    Put a kite on it and wire it up.  Buy a a couple of seriously cool custom sails that suit heavy and light winds - make sure the strand is pink or green.

Put a decal of some enormous tits on the mainsail.... just to cause some real offence, tut-tutting and head turning.

Pay a grand to display at the Dinghy Exhibition - right at the entrance - hoist a banner above it, printed  'look what your missing dickhead' and be proud that no one agrees with you, therefore you must be right.    

Frankly, and with respect, at your age why worry about the resale value anymore than this PY b**locks?
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:54am
Graeme.

What handicap are you suggesting means you wouldnt have a cat in hells chance???  THERE IS NOT OFFICAL PY FOR THE ZERO YET!!

So how could a reasonable or even completely deranged bloke make an assumption on the basis of a document that is devoid of factual data, is ruhmored to be written by a Yacht club that doent even have a proper dinght fleet, made to look like its official RYA...but isnt!??????



Would you buy a pair of fake Oakley sunglasses and the complain that they were not real?  You have completely misread this situation.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:46am
Originally posted by rich96


Don't buy something that probably is too big and powerful for you in the first place simply because you thought it might have a good handicap and be able to beat some Solos and Streakers on a local lake.



It's not up to you to tell me what to buy. As it happened I bought this EPS on somebody's recommendation and I don't regret it, on the sea it can be sailed to its handicap and I've done so.

This D Zero is a lake boat, it is hopeless on the sea and I wouldn't give it a second look as such, so now, with a handicap I wouldn't have a cats chance in hell of achieving on a lake and certainly no chance on the sea, I've changed my mind. Had it remained as the designer suggested, amply demonstrated to me, and I've demo'd myself as being on or around 1045-50 I'd have done so. Clearly there are forces in place that will degrade that handicap, wether protectionist outfits like Great Lakes that are probably in thrall to the commercial builders of those classes they protect, or somebody in the pocket of RS or Cirrus or whoever, I don't care, my money is going elsewhere, probably on white goods now we're moving and I'll bumble about doing something else, I'm getting really bored with it all now anyway, dinghy sailors always were sheep letting themselves get herded about and being regularly shorn, well not me, sorry, I aint playing.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 9:49am
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:43am
Originally posted by 2547



But I think they RYA have a role to help set a starting number and in this case they should set them the same ... I can't help but think there are some connections in these matters ...

Don't get me wrong, I totally see where you are coming from regarding a 'pre-EN' for want of a better acronym, however don't you think a manufacturer influenced number would be open to far more abuse than the current system?  

As it currently stands, Bas (and Chris) have been very clear- an official EN will ONLY be published based on data from club returns.
 
As it stands, all that we actually have here is a document made public using artwork it's seemingly not entitled too.  

A retraction by the originator and publicist (sorry Simon, I appreciate it isn't 'your fault'  Confused) and statement from the RYA (employee rather than its reliance on volunteers would be nice).  

If and I use it very carefully, If RS has any influence over the Aero retaining the 1040 whilst the D-Zero gets a cobbling down the ranks, then I think that reflects incredibly badly on them.  

FWIW - I don't think that would be the case, the impression I get is that Pete has been taken to grow grassroots fleets like Lymington and Bowmoor - if RS's motives have ever been about club racing in PY fleets, then they have hidden it very well imho.  They certainly wouldn't have launched another class/classes with multiple PNs after all the sh*t we went through with the RS100, and in even earlier history, they really couldn't have cared less when the Vareo got a shoeing from 1050ish to 1035 iirc.  The stock response was 'come to class events instead'.


Edited by kneewrecker - 19 Sep 14 at 9:47am
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:39am
Originally posted by 2547

The threat of legal action is just forum talk ... he wont do it.

Although I do thing that he has a point to some extent.

Someone has represented those RYAs as RYA prescribed; if they are not from the RYA they should jump on that ASAP.

But I think they RYA have a role to help set a starting number and in this case they should set them the same ... I can't help but think there are some connections in these matters ...


BINGO!  Thats exactly my point.  The rest of this is just hot air and speculation!  Some monkey has used RYA logos in an RYA format to give some credit to a frankly biased bogus set of numbers.  When there is a prize on the table of the event thats worth a couple of grand.....It stinks to me!  Some needs to be accountable
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:35am
Graeme, for goodness sake.  Have you forgotten to take you pills this week?

Surely by now you know that club returns and statistics from those returns make up a calculated PY???  Please say you understand this raw basic?

If so then you have nothing to worry about. The statistics wont lie!  The PY system has done some great things making Bandit classes race on a more level playing field.



What you should be outraged about is some wally has guessed at a PY for one boat and not the other, Thats the nonsense in this whole thing!  
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Punky View Drop Down
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Posts: 90 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Punky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:34am
Originally posted by SimonW99

talk of some possible 5's for younger sailors, which is the holy grail of any sailing club survival.
 
Just don't give them a yardstick of 1025! 
 
Actually, that is a exactly the point.  At 1025 (the Aero 5 number that I understand GWSC are using) no-one in their right mind would want one - losibng every race no matter how well you sail is not going to encourage participation.  Put the handicap up to 1150 and it'll sell like hot cakes.   Therefore the authority to set and alter this number should be controlled - and who is better placed than the RYA? 
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:34am
Originally posted by SimonW99

The only time a py has ever put me off even trying a boat is when the manufacturer has launched a new boat with a ridiculously fast py, thinking its a marketing 'advantage'. 

There have been enough dzero's sold that it wouldn't suffer the Alto fate as results will come through so wouldn't put me off unless I was trying to find a launch bandit LOL 

I hope we now have enough aeros coming to start a fleet so PY is less relevant from my point of view even if we sail within handicap races. 

We felt the time was right to try and bring a group together to try and get the critical mass of a fleet. No sailor with money to splash on a new single hander ( typically middle aged ) is going to  be told what to do, so we simply got the demos organised and then listened to the concensus. Both Suntouched and RS were great in providing this and had club deals available. There was no bias and it could have gone either way, or indeed they could have split. A couple of us said we would go with the flow and therefore no one felt pressured and we ended up with an 11 boat order. 

It was also important that the boats we compared were cost effective. From a cold point of view the Blaze probably remains the best boat for our club, but it's a bigger more costly option ( although not unreasonable for what you get) and there are some in the nascent aero group who just wouldn't entertain racks. 

Point being that we concentrated on the fleet aspect first, but gave everyone the option to demo, then pushed a date to meet and decide. Obviously it may all fall apart in a year or so, but there is some enthusiasm building and talk of some possible 5's for younger sailors, which is the holy grail of any sailing club survival.
 

Much as I think you guys backed the wonky donkey* rather than Holman's glorious steed, I 100% respect the way you conducted that process.  As you say, no one will care what the handicap is, nor where you came against the Merlin once you've got more than 3 or 4 of you out there in those Aeros.  I guess how a Supernova did, or where the Streaker came might be interesting... but only so you can use it to rally the poor sod to your cause and get him/her in a new Aero.

As someone who can't really commit to a travelling circuit (so that club racing becomes little more than convivial 'training'), I've always assumed that buying in to a new class might come with a change in primary location - I moved clubs for the 100, ironically from somewhere which would have been a better geographic location.  Had my boat fund (and winter sun and ski holiday fund) not been committed to Stamp Duty this October, I would have been joining Oxford SC with the D-Zero.  

Those buying in to new classes with only PY racing on offer, need to accept the way the system works.   In truth, if they can't, then they are better off waiting and seeing what comes out in the wash in a few years time.   If there's one thing they could do though to speed up the process, it would be ensure that their results are submitted to the RYA- not something H&SSC currently do iirc?  


(* gross hypothesis based on never actually seeing one in the flesh)
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:34am
The threat of legal action is just forum talk ... he wont do it.

Although I do think that he has a point to some extent.

Someone has represented those RYAs as RYA prescribed; if they are not from the RYA they should jump on that ASAP.

But I think they RYA have a role to help set a starting number and in this case they should set them the same ... I can't help but think there are some connections in these matters ...


Edited by 2547 - 19 Sep 14 at 9:48am
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Thunder Road View Drop Down
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Posts: 372 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Thunder Road Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:33am
Originally posted by Thunder Road

I spoke to the RYA a little time ago, to sort out some D-Zero admin. concerning the CA, I also took the time to speak to the PY organiser, he told me in no uncertain terms that the PY for the D-Zero would be based on club returns only, like every other class. I firmly believe this is what will happen in the fullness of time, all the rest is smoke and mirrors. Sail the boat you enjoy and encourage your sailing comm. to do their job, it really is as simple as that Wink

I think it is time for the RYA to take a lead and put an end to these varying H/C systems, with the best will in the world they have allowed/encouraged clubs to run events with modified PYs to take into account local conditions, etc. Possibly the moment has come for all RYA sanctioned clubs and events to be run under the strict published figures, until the system can be reviewed. It may also encourage people to push their clubs to make their annual returns. This anarchy and hysteria on various forums will damage all, even those who may seek to gain by it.
Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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