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Advertising via sail numbers? 55

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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 19 Feb 13 at 8:30am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

i'm being facetious, I actually think its a good idea from the RYA
 
Is it really?
 
I think not. Measuring will quite quickly become a dying art in classes that adopt self certification. With no outside control there is scope for incorrect interpretation or - heaven forbid - outright cheating to go undetected.
 
It is obviously not generally in a sailmakers interest to produce sails that do not measure, indeed often they know more about the rules than the measurers do themselves, but this thread highlights exactly why outside certification is necessery.
 
Lets face it misundertadings already happen. Once the sails have a signature on them they are "in" as far as the competitor is concerned and what do you do if they are later found to not measure? How will you find out? How many pages would that topic run to?
 
If/when self certification is commonplace i'm pretty sure qualified RYA and class measurers will become scarce. This will mean a wealth of knowledge will initially be unused, but more worryingly could die out altogether as there will be no real incentive to become a measurer. I can't help thinking this will be a really bad thing, especially for development classes where an intimate knowledge of the rules is necessary throughout the class as they are just as big a part of racing as what goes on out on the water.
 
Look at it this way: To become a measurer you have to do the RYA course (£50ish, every three years.), fuel to get there (Nearly all are at the coast so for me minimum £50, and then join the RYA (£30). You then have to get the labels in (£30 for 10 from the RYA, don't even start me on that!!) and you can't measure sails without them.
 
Therefore in your first year measuring your minimum outlay is £160. I look to make £5 on each sail i measure which does raise eyebrows with some people but it's not charity work! You need to measure 32 sails to break even - quite a  task without self certification, i would venture to say it will be impossible to break even once it is. I'm certainly not expecting to make a living out of measuring sails, but i don't expect it to cost me money either, so if need for the service disappears i won't renew my qualification.
 
So, lets hope that there remains at least some requirement for outside control of sail and boat measurement after self certifcation becomes the norm. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 13 at 8:45am
I'm surprised that your CA don't chip in for at least some of the costs, Paramedic. As for charging a fiver, it seems pretty reasonable to me, even if your initial costs were met.
And I certainly agree that measurement independant of the sail maker is a very good idea. I'd say that even classes with one set maker should at least check one sail in X number to ensure they are actually what they should be, if not measuring them all.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 13 at 8:50am
It is obviously not generally in a sailmakers
interest to produce sails that do not measure,
indeed often they know more about the rules
than the measurers do themselves, but this
thread highlights exactly why outside
certification is necessery.


sometimes sailmakers dont know more but have their own interpretation of the rules which is understandable. If the class dont know what they are how would the makers know. Thats why we created the official class interpretation and documented it, step by step on how to measure a phantom sail. Now the makers cannot claim at any point that they didnt know what measures and what doesnt. Everyone is aware of what is expected of a sail that measures. I dont know if other classes do thos sort of official thing but if they dont perhaps they should?
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 13 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by pondmonkey

i'm being facetious, I actually think its a good idea from the RYA
 
Is it really?
 
I think not. Measuring will quite quickly become a dying art in classes that adopt self certification. With no outside control there is scope for incorrect interpretation or - heaven forbid - outright cheating to go undetected.
 
It is obviously not generally in a sailmakers interest to produce sails that do not measure, indeed often they know more about the rules than the measurers do themselves, but this thread highlights exactly why outside certification is necessery.
 
Lets face it misundertadings already happen. Once the sails have a signature on them they are "in" as far as the competitor is concerned and what do you do if they are later found to not measure? How will you find out? How many pages would that topic run to?
 
If/when self certification is commonplace i'm pretty sure qualified RYA and class measurers will become scarce. This will mean a wealth of knowledge will initially be unused, but more worryingly could die out altogether as there will be no real incentive to become a measurer. I can't help thinking this will be a really bad thing, especially for development classes where an intimate knowledge of the rules is necessary throughout the class as they are just as big a part of racing as what goes on out on the water.
 
Look at it this way: To become a measurer you have to do the RYA course (£50ish, every three years.), fuel to get there (Nearly all are at the coast so for me minimum £50, and then join the RYA (£30). You then have to get the labels in (£30 for 10 from the RYA, don't even start me on that!!) and you can't measure sails without them.
 
Therefore in your first year measuring your minimum outlay is £160. I look to make £5 on each sail i measure which does raise eyebrows with some people but it's not charity work! You need to measure 32 sails to break even - quite a  task without self certification, i would venture to say it will be impossible to break even once it is. I'm certainly not expecting to make a living out of measuring sails, but i don't expect it to cost me money either, so if need for the service disappears i won't renew my qualification.
 
So, lets hope that there remains at least some requirement for outside control of sail and boat measurement after self certifcation becomes the norm. 

a compelling response- thank you  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 13 at 4:59pm
I've always understood self certification to be in addition to measurement checking at major championships and a programme of oversight. You can imagine for wider spread international classes that in some places there might not be a measurer in your country. And if someones sail/mast/hull is going to fail to measure you want to know before they turn up and find out the weekend before the Worlds...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 13 at 12:26pm
Oh Dear
the fireball shown as the Blithfield barrel winner looks to have not very new tape drive sails from Alverbank I think.

Me thinks FB are trying to close the door and the horse has bolted
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 13 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by gordon1277

Oh Dear
the fireball shown as the Blithfield barrel winner looks to have not very new tape drive sails from Alverbank I think.

Me thinks FB are trying to close the door and the horse has bolted

P&B aren't they?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 13 at 12:55pm
Yep that's p&b but it looks more like 3dl than tape drive.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 13 at 1:16pm
That's d4. It's a proprietary technology of one of the cloth manufacturers. It's a panelled sail with fibres laid out in directions and densities as specified by the sailmaker. It is laid up and supplied either as a single sheet or panels, not sure which, to the sailmaker who then gets taping and stitching.
Think of it as a kind of franchised non patent infringing technology for membrane sails that allows small sailmakers access to bigger technology, whilst allowing the cloth manufacturer to just press the button and make cloth, albeit semi bespoke cloth.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 13 at 1:21pm
Looks like the D4 sail from P&B to me... http://www.pinbax.com/index.asp?selection=detailed&uid=41201&cg=12&mc=129&cct=1&sc=507


Damn, Dan beat me to it! Cry


Edited by tgruitt - 20 Feb 13 at 1:21pm
Needs to sail more...
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