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OultonBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Match Racing in Handicap fleets
    Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:22am
JimC,
Yes, Yes, Yes,
Agreed.

Its just that bumping-up appears to take soooooo lonnngg, that we're all here trying to work out our own answer.
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:08am
I think you are over analysing this folks. Sailing someone else down the fleet is basically allowed.

However...

Rule 2 is a fundamental rule and it never turns off. But it also has a pretty high bar.

2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized
principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized
under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles
have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be
excluded from the boat’s series score.


OK, so recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play always apply. Agreed?

OK, so would it be in acordance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and *fair play* for a 49er to cover an Oppie out of a race? Talk to the man in the street or anyone else and I reckon you'll get a no.
On the other hand is it legitimate between two boats of different classes but almost exactly the same speed?
I'd say clearly yes.

OK, so somewhere between the two is a large gray area, and the rule says "clearly", so a gray area won't do. But at some point I think covering a boat of much slower performance breaches recognised principles of sportsmanship or fair play: probably at the point where the performance is so disaprate that no amount of skill on the part of the covered boat can get them clear.

But basically its down to a Protest committee, and if I were on that PC I'd bump it straight up to the RYA for confirmation...
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OultonBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:06am
Originally posted by RS400atC

The argument that it's a different leg if the two boats started it at different times does not hold water, since that must be the case on every leg apart from the first. The two boats won't have rounded the previous mark simultaneously.
Yep, I was starting to notice that one myself !

Hmmmm, as said before, and repeated, I'm still waiting for the authorities to respond to my official query to define "Leg" and "Same Leg".
A definition, or set of definitions, would be most useful.
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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OultonBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Phantom Titch

..... But then if a "faster" boat want to march race a slower boat, the faster boat always has the advange, when I say faster I mean different fleet, Laser v Topper for instance. As the Topper how can you win?
Protest .... and this is what the Phantom did Not do !

2 FAIR SAILING

A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized

principles of sportsmanship and fair play.


The RRS actually mentions "Fairness", and "Recognised Principles".
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:37am
well I'm not in favour of the faster boat hunting the slower one - but if they do do it, there isn't much the slower boat can do
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Phantom Titch View Drop Down
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Posts: 24 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Phantom Titch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:29am
OK so we have discussed the rules, Thanks
 
But then if a "faster" boat want to march race a slower boat, the faster boat always has the advange, when I say faster I mean different fleet, Laser v Topper for instance. As the Topper how can you win?
Titch ~:-))
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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:28am
that's correct, the concept of boats being on the same leg seems to fall down completely Wink

Edited by r2d2 - 28 Feb 12 at 3:25pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:23am
The argument that it's a different leg if the two boats started it at different times does not hold water, since that must be the case on every leg apart from the first. The two boats won't have rounded the previous mark simultaneously.
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OultonBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:17am
Originally posted by r2d2

..... but then, while I like OultonBen's 'space-time' argument about the two legs after the two start times being different and think that technically from a physics point of view it is correct, I doubt the agrument will be won because in ordinary life most people don't think that way.
..... and if they moved really, Really Fast, they could exist in 2 different places at the same time and totally interfere with each other .....
However in ordinary life most people don't think that way at all !
He-he, the musings of a Physics teacher chasing Schroedinger's Cat !
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:51am
I tend to agree with RS400at C's point about the first race  - it could be beneficial to your overall result to sail a top guy down the fleet if you got the chance in the first race
 
but then, while I like OultonBen's 'space-time' argument about the two legs after the two start times being different and think that technically from a physics point of view it is correct, I doubt the agrument will be won because in ordinary life most people don't think that way.
 
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