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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Development Classes
    Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 12:26pm

Aarrgh! Are you trying to be provocative, Strawbs?

Speed is a relative thing. Eveb your Cherub is slow compared to my car, which is slow compared to a jumbo jet. The RS400 does not plane upwind in winds where planing downwind becomes possible. But it isn't a slooooow boat unless you consider all boats pre 1992 slow. The Tasar, on the other hand, can plane upwnd when its windy enough. But it is a slower boat than the 400 (nice, nonetheless). So upwind planing does not mean, per se, a quick boat. And as I didn't want an 'extreme' boat, with twin wires and all carbon construction, generating enough righting moment to plane upwind would be tricky - though if you can do it under the rule formula good luck to you. The idea proposed at the start of the thread was for a 400 style class, therefore 400 style performance. I have already admitted that the formula may not be as good as a simple box rule - I just thought I'd share my thoughts.

 

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Strawberry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 12:35pm
However, the 400 could be a hell of alot quicker without changing any key dimensions. It's almost been "de-tuned", as a compromise more polarised towards easier sailing over speed (the downfall of the SMOD). You couldn't expect this to happen in a dev class, where everyone will be seeking pure speed. And the Tasars seem to manage to plane upwind without traps, and I wouldn't call them an extreme design. More of an "efficient" design.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 12:55pm
 But IS everyone in a development class seeking pure speed? In that case, what about restricted development classes like N12s and MRs and NS14s? Aren't some people seeking something that is interesting and fun to sail without being too twitchy? Aren't most of the popular development classes those in the NS/MR/N12 bracket ie medium performance?

There are lots of classes for people looking just for performance, CMRS's idea could be very nice for people looking for performance with ease of handling.

Of interest, the modern NS14 doesn't plane upwind like the old NS14 shape (ie Tasar) does. Like the pre-foil narrow Moths, the modern NS14 just carves upwind; and it's definitely faster than the Tasar upwind in breeze, just like the non-planing narrow Moth is definitely faster upwind than the planing-hull scow upwind in breeze. A Bieker I-14 doesn't aim for planing like an old Ice Aussie 14 does, but the Bieker goes faster. You don't have to plane to go upwind fast.






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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 1:00pm
Well yes, I believe people do try design and build boats to be as fast possible within their particular rule set. As CMRS said, speed is all relative. The NS/MR/N12 does have more moderate speeds than an I14 Skiff etc., but someone designing a NS/MR/N12 will, I feel sure, try to design it to be as fast as possible. Which, at this stage of development, is going to be pushing the boundries.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 1:24pm

Thanks Chris, you are echoing my thoughts exactly. BTW, have you made any progress on your book?

I guess you can take the man out of the Cherub, but you can't take the Cherub out of the man...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 1:26pm
Sure, I was assuming that (like other formula classes) CMRS' class would have something like a rise of floor or waterline beam measurement, to give it the 400-style stability he was looking for instead of MR-style twitchiness.

It could be a good thing to control - some of the development classes seem to have been losing a bit of steam as they get a bit tippier. Something like a sailing version of a fast-but-comfy sports sedan, rather a hot hatch or sportscar or V8, may be popular.

EDIT-

CMRS, there's been some long-term family hassles keeping me away from it. I've been plowing through some ideas and hitting the calculator to try to find out how to identify a skiff (turns out the "real" Skiffs stick out like sore thumbs in some ratios). Interview with a PSIOCD (Prominent Skiff, International and Olympic Class Designer.......) is scheduled Thursday. I've sent chapters to a couple of other big design names, and next week I'm going to go away to the country and can interview them too.

But it's slow going; so many little niggly bits to sort out, so easy to get on the net and seek distraction!    :-p

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Post Options Post Options   Quote BigFatStan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Strawberry

However, the 400 could be a hell of alot quicker without changing any key dimensions. It's almost been "de-tuned", as a compromise more polarised towards easier sailing over speed (the downfall of the SMOD).


The Downfall? Don't you think that that very fact is a reason for their success? We aren't all gymnastic heroes
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 1:55pm

Fair point. What I should have said is that is the downfall "in my honest opinion". This obviously isn't the opinion of the majoirity of the sailing world.

I like to know that I'm sailing the boat that is as fast as it could possibly be. Other people have different priorities.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote BigFatStan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by Strawberry

Fair point. What I should have said is that is the downfall "in my honest opinion". This obviously isn't the opinion of the majoirity of the sailing world.

I like to know that I'm sailing the boat that is as fast as it could possibly be. Other people have different priorities.



Not an unreasonable position either... respect.

However, it does raise a new interesting thought - dinghy racing -  chess or a drag race?

I have to say I love the tactical aspect, perhaps because I ain't too fast!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 2:47pm
Although as much speed as possible within the rule is a goal of pretty much every sailor (otherwise you wouldn't get tuning guides for SMODs), absolute speed is, logically, not a priority of *any* rule, because most rule limitations serve to make boats slower to gain other advantages.

The point of a formula rule for a class like this (and I think that's a better phrase than development rule) would be to try and combine some of the advantages of open rule boats to a mass market, but maintain some of the advantages of a SMOD too.

Extreme boats are never popular - shortage of extreme people. Ideally you would want the formula to produce boats where major manufacturers could feel confident that they wren't going to be out designed and yet those who like some fiddling have the opportunity.

I do wonder if the presence of professional works teams in the F18 aids stability. As the fastest sailors then they'll normally beat amateur sailors with faster boats. That way the maufacturer boats always look quick, so people who buy them aren't discouraged by thinking thery are being out boatspeeded...

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