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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: National/Regional Circuits.
    Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

On the other hand Sam, earlier this year I walked away from the Raceboard class because they were allowing more and bigger sails, and there seemed to be no value in spending $6,000 just so we could go 1-2% quicker.

I gave up Raceboards when they dropped the 7.5m class (well, I continued the NW circuit as they stuck with 7.5m and finally sold my battered old Equipe II this year)

You got away lucky with two sails - at one time in raceboards we were often turning up with two or three boards (all carbon/kevlar and hand made)and four or more complete rigs. The 18s at one stage were using four (or was it 4.5?) rigs.

IIRC IYRU Int. Raceboards have never allowed custom boards and limit a racer to one board and two sails at a given event and the current max sail size is still 9.5m (since 2009 I think). I think Chris is in the US though so things may well be different that side of the pond.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 12 Nov 16 at 1:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:53am
Broadly with Cirrus and Sam on this one. There is plenty of choice to be had, both on no choice tight OD rules, different rig choices under OD running various regimes and other classes that have a broader approach. Looking at my own class measurement rules all the sail dimensions are maximum with no minimum mentioned. 
To pose the question has racing now with the benefit of extensive safety cover and very efficient warm clothing lost sight of good seamanship? Seems to me the examples of using undersized sails in days of yore was a tribute to good sense rather than cheque book cheating by using optimum sails.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:37am
There are plenty of active classes offering everything from strict One Design to multiple rigs and development hulls, just choose the one that suits you. And racing is available in all forms from big OD fleets to casual handicap so even the 'lost classes' like my Spice get a chance to have enjoyable racing.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris 249, just as with everything else in the sport, there is little that is actually 'new'! I've got the original paperwork from the 'semi-official' 2 person performance boat Trials that were held at Itchenor SC between Loosedrecht and La Baule in the early 1950s. Back then of course dinghies still reefed or, in the case of 14s, dropped their genoa when going to windward in a strong breeze.

I was reading about how, with a forecast of strong breezes,  the 14 borrowed a suit of National 12 sails. This was clearly an accepted thing to do, for when John Westell was sailing his boat from Exmouth to Hunstanton for the POW event, he borrowed a suit of Nat 12 sails. Back to the Trials - the 14 was using the Nat 12s rig, so the FD borrowed the 14 sails....mix and match!

Yep, and Coronet used 14 sails for much (or most) of the next trials, and of course the canoes had been using multiple rigs for different conditions from about 1888, with the predecessors of the skiffs adopting multiple rigs about that time too.

I'd have to disagree with Jeffers, because you can have "true class racing" and still allow multiple sails and rigs. I was just using Sam's example, as it's a class we've both raced in, to make the point that allowing multiple rigs can also get to be very expensive and complicated.

The only time I've run a class it was a single-sail SMOD.  We had an issue with beginners being able to finish in high winds, so I commissioned a small high-wind one-design sail and we altered the rules to allow it to be used so that sailors could finish high-wind races.  We made changes to the points system so the sailors who didn't want the extra cost and hassle of buying a (very cheap) sail would remain competitive. Having only one sail wasn't perfect. Allowing multiple sails wasn't perfect. The compromise we ended up with wasn't perfect either!


Edited by Chris 249 - 12 Nov 16 at 11:49am
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The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:21am
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Edited by Chris 249 - 12 Nov 16 at 11:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:12am
Just maybe it is the tendancy to be highly prescriptive in some quarters that is part of the problem on forums and around some clubs. 

If you keep telling or implying to others, even perhaps unintentionally, that their preferred 'model' is wrong, less 'proper' or even inferior you could even drive people away from the competitive side of the sport at the margin all together.  You certainly don't attract others to your way of thinking if you knock their current choices or ideas ...  you might even be doing the exact opposite !    

The too frequent negativity expressed by a few regulars simply cannot be dressed up, however they might justify it, as generally positive to the future of small boat competition.  'Debate' or discussion here all too often seems to seek out the lowest common forum demoninator - essentially 'my' choice of class of boat, type of racing, preference of location etc etc .. is superior to 'yours'.  So others like different boats, ways of racing,  class rules or formulas, location and have different ideas  ... whatever - Just accept it and go sailing.


Edited by Cirrus - 12 Nov 16 at 11:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 10:32am
Chris 249, just as with everything else in the sport, there is little that is actually 'new'! I've got the original paperwork from the 'semi-official' 2 person performance boat Trials that were held at Itchenor SC between Loosedrecht and La Baule in the early 1950s. Back then of course dinghies still reefed or, in the case of 14s, dropped their genoa when going to windward in a strong breeze.

I was reading about how, with a forecast of strong breezes,  the 14 borrowed a suit of National 12 sails. This was clearly an accepted thing to do, for when John Westell was sailing his boat from Exmouth to Hunstanton for the POW event, he borrowed a suit of Nat 12 sails. Back to the Trials - the 14 was using the Nat 12s rig, so the FD borrowed the 14 sails....mix and match!
Dougal H
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 2:24am
On the other hand Sam, earlier this year I walked away from the Raceboard class because they were allowing more and bigger sails, and there seemed to be no value in spending $6,000 just so we could go 1-2% quicker.

You got away lucky with two sails - at one time in raceboards we were often turning up with two or three boards (all carbon/kevlar and hand made)and four or more complete rigs. The 18s at one stage were using four (or was it 4.5?) rigs. There's a reason why classes with multiple rigs are not popular - it's a huge expense and even when the boats are free, it's a huge hassle.

Surely it's not as simple as saying that allowing more rigs gets more people sailing, as others have said. Not everyone wants to spend more or have more gear to be competitive, nor is buying extra rigs necessarily the best way to do so. More sailing doesn't always mean more enjoyment if the other guys have such a large equipment advantage that you are not competing on an even playing field. If we want to make it a contest of bank balances, just turn up to the club with an accountant to check your net worth and don't bother to get wet. 

Yes, if a class allows multiple rigs and the handicap is set for multiple rigs then it's OK to race them, but surely the downsides to allowing multiple rigs have to be recognised as well.  



Edited by Chris 249 - 12 Nov 16 at 2:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 12:33am
I've sailed Raceboards for 30 years (well, it was Div 1 when I started racing them). You needed at least two sails to be competitive in all wind strengths (I even had a light wind and a strong wind 6 metre when camber induced sails were first allowed 'cos my light wind 6 metre was unmanageable in F4).

Either way, one boat with two or three sails is much cheaper than two boats which is the sensible alternative.

OTOH, don't all those 'sponsored' sailors race several classes anyway?

FWIW I've just bought a Blaze and will have both Blaze and Fire sails to race with. I think I'll be more competitive with the Fire but for lighter wind days having the option of the extra Blaze horsepower will be nice.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 12 Nov 16 at 12:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 12:08am
"As for 1 sail for all conditions, I know 1 dinghy that does it very nicely thank you and performs well across most conditions."

...but being massively outsold by the one that isn't "really true class racing".
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