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    Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Rupert

RS have been perfectly clear, it is 3 classes. Most clubs haven't seen many yet, so no real problem there yet. So far just a forum issue, then, and not a reason for any potential buyer to be confused.

Except the largest fleet in the world have adopted a policy of treating the three rigs as reefs, not three classes. I believe my club does that too. So it's not just hypothetical.
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 9:17pm
Rs400, who cares? Well the way we run racing at my club I guess we do, now it's perfectly acceptable to run it another way at another club as it is for us to call it cheating at ours if you don't declare the change intentionally, same for wings etc.  Now all of this may go on unknowingly by competitor or race officials and most likely is swept under the wash down for the sake of not wanting to get into a debate at the weekend.  but in my experience it's usually undertaken by those that know what they're doing and worse still those that disparage the handicap racing system! Which leads to the question, why then would they want to try and gain from it? It's just not cricket.

If you want to change rig but compete at lowest handicap version you've sailed in the series, and declare it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 9:23pm
Well I guess you mean us, but I would point out that we have not decided anything, just using the rules for club racing that have existed at our club for years and under which our lasers have always sailed! 

Needless to say our open meeting will be sailed strictly in fixed classes.

If it was up to me I would allow the series to follow the helm and they have whatever the PY why is for the boat they sail in each race. Topper one week, Skiff the next!
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Except the largest fleet in the world have adopted a policy of treating the three rigs as reefs, not three classes.

Just so long as they make a PY return of RS Aero (All Rigs) or the like and don't return as being one or another.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 9:25pm
Yes, it gets my goat that it is often justified by those declaring handicap racing as "just a bit of fun". Well, duh, all sailboat racing is just a bit if fun, but if it really, really doesn't matter to you why feel the need to gain an advantage outside the rules?
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 9:53pm
its a form of elitism if you ask me, the whole one design is king mentality and handicap racing is a poor cousin, and is one of the fundamental things that needs to stop if our sport wants to gain and keep new participants.  Perhaps a topic for another thread.

Edited by Oli - 07 Mar 15 at 9:54pm
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by Oli

its a form of elitism if you ask me, the whole one design is king mentality and handicap racing is a poor cousin, and is one of the fundamental things that needs to stop if our sport wants to gain and keep new participants.  Perhaps a topic for another thread.

With respect, where's the evidence that giving more respect to handicap racing will increase the number of new sailors?
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 10:29pm
there isn't any chris, but it couldn't hurt to try to give the respect it deserves in getting, and im only guessing here, the majority of racing sailors out on the water week in week out. 

i take the approach of unless its strict OD, or as close to it as humanly possible, its all handicap.  anything that allows open sail makers or more than one hull design is just tightening the handicap spread.  all of which is fine, but people shouldnt kid themselves and call classes that allow those features true one design.  off the top of my head fireballs, solos, phantoms, merlins and on and on.  merlins apply an age handicap so at least theyre a bit more honest about it. 

i suppose i like my sailing a bit more black and white, but i try not to apply a greater importance of one over the other.  ive had some great one design racing the last year, infact i put so much importance in to it ive ruined my knee for the coming season.  might not of been the biggest of fleets but certainly the quality of the teams was high and we did quite well until the last day or so (pain killers and concentration dont mix).  what i do take back to py racing from that experience though is that actually our results are about right, we should win a few and be consistently at the top, if were not we know something is wrong.  call that attitude arrogance if you will, i call it being honest with my known measured ability in a world were measuring performance is all we have to get the majority of our racing club members out on the water.
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 9:33am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Peaky

Except the largest fleet in the world have adopted a policy of treating the three rigs as reefs, not three classes.

Just so long as they make a PY return of RS Aero (All Rigs) or the like and don't return as being one or another.

That is a good point, Jim.

At WSC, boats will usually start as 'Laser' or 'Radial', but after rig-swapping they sometimes get re-labelled Laser/Radial (or similar), but mostly I suspect not.  The PY just gets changed 'for this race only' in Sailwave.

We should have a think about achieving more consistency, but does this mean that our 'all rigs' or 'Laser/Radial' weekly PY returns will just get binned?  One might hope that the analysis software would look at the PY used for each race and deduce the rig accordingly, regardless of how we qualify 'Laser' - the data must be in our uploaded Sailwave return, surely?
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 10:00am
I don't know anything about that part of the system or how the data is transferred I'm afraid. There are quite a number of systems that upload to the PYS website, not just Sailwave so there are an awful lot of potential complications.

Edited by JimC - 09 Mar 15 at 10:00am
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