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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:38am
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Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Feb 13 at 9:42am
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boatshed View Drop Down
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:36am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by JimC

[QUOTE=boatshed] If you did declare it, whatever the rights and wrongs of accepting the entry might be, I don't believe Rule 2 applies.


So, it's up to the RO to accept or decline the entry of a boat that declares it's self out of class ?

fundamentally yes, in a handicap event at least.


So, by accepting the entry the onus is on the RO who by default will declare the entry legal.   Every competitor should then protest the RO.

I know this is a hard line and I accept development of kit is vital to keep classes alive and the Fireball, for instance,  is a great example of a very active class.    Classes that wish to evolve have ample opportunities to do it 'in-house' w/e in and w/e out until they achieve consensus in their association for a rule change.   
Steve
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:35am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

There is a genuine question over the Fireball class rules and tapes... no one has, in an official capacity, answered this question.  



Anyone???
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:33am
not at all Steve, if the RO is using PY correctly, then local adjustments would be in place anyway.  I can see no harm in clocking an additional 50 point penalty on anyone declaring themselves out of class with a performance enhancement trial- like for example, sail developments, if the nature of the event was taking things as seriously as some sailors clearly believe they should. 

Similarly what would you do if a chap showed up to race his Vago singlehanded (perfectly do-able)... it's PY rating is 1064 on the list... as a doublehander.    IMHO, turning him away totally undervalues the one good thing PY racing has going for it... bringing people from different classes together for fun sailing.


Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Feb 13 at 9:35am
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boatshed View Drop Down
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:27am
Originally posted by rb_stretch

If a competitor is knowingly out of class and declares so to the RO beforehand, the RO has basically three choices:
 
- let them race as any other class boat
- penalise their handicap
- not let them enter the race
 
 


If these are the choices the RO can make, then the first two cannot be the right decisions.  

First, the boat is out of class and will successfully be protested be any of the competitors.

Second, the RO has no experience, evidence or knowledge of what a correct PY should be and the RYA PY scheme can not help.  By accepting the entry and adjusting the PY, the RO would rightly be open to protest by any  competitor regarding the adjusted PY and it's correctness - including the out-of-class entry. 

The third choice is the only fair decision which is right for the race to proceed and not make a nonsense out of the race.  


Steve
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:22am
Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by JimC

[QUOTE=boatshed] If you did declare it, whatever the rights and wrongs of accepting the entry might be, I don't believe Rule 2 applies.


So, it's up to the RO to accept or decline the entry of a boat that declares it's self out of class ?

fundamentally yes, in a handicap event at least.  Or am I missing the point of handicap racing?
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:14am
not much at all Gareth in my not so humble opinion, if we are refering to the original post and questions raised, that is....  any vitriol extolled against the Little Johnny Fanclub was more in response to the tone of their engagement with the thread.

Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Feb 13 at 9:15am
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GarethT View Drop Down
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Posts: 714 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:10am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

[

Not really... and I do think that suggesting this is some kangaroo court is a bit of an overreaction.  There is a genuine question over the Fireball class rules and tapes... no one has, in an official capacity, answered this question.  

 
And how much stick did the 420 class get when they did just that on the other lynch-mob thread?
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:07am
Originally posted by GarethT

Just like, I'd imagine, most of the people expressing an opinion about this, I was not there. I would imagine that there were a number of Fireball sailors in attendance, sponsored by a rival sail-loft, who would have certainly noticed anything untoward and been perfectly able to report it to the RO.

 
Until the RRS are amended to include 'trial by internet', surely protesting on the day is the only way to resolve issues like this.

Not really... and I do think that suggesting this is some kangaroo court is a bit of an overreaction.  There is a genuine question over the Fireball class rules and tapes... no one has, in an official capacity, answered this question.  

The rest is just discussion and hypothetic interpretation.  Whether or not a boat with 55 on its sails remains at the top of a spreadsheet is irrelevant to that discussion- my own view of 'm'eh' has been rather well countered in the past few posts by those who clearly do take their handicap racing seriously.   

I guess the best response for the winner would be for their to be absolutely no unequivocal doubt that the sails were class legal.... UKFA anyone, anyone?

In the meantime, maybe we can be allowed to keep discussing the hypothetical situation, and to add some weight to the opposing view to my own, (that it really doesn't matter), it is worth taking a timely reminder of the Great Dane's famous words:

"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."


Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Feb 13 at 9:12am
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 13 at 9:05am
If a competitor is knowingly out of class and declares so to the RO beforehand, the RO has basically three choices:
 
- let them race as any other class boat
- penalise their handicap
- not let them enter the race
 
Influencing their decision will be the fact that an out of class boat really becomes the issue if they win, so I suspect that many would play it safe for anything thought to provide an advantage and err towards the latter two of the list. This obviously puts more pressure on the RO (not a good thing), so I think race participants should be comfortable with them erring on the side of safety.
 
This gives the entirely reasonable position that if you want to race out of class, your chances of winning are significantly reduced or eliminated. You make your choices: you want to race, stick to the class; you want to test new equipment, you participate but can't pot hunt.
 
It's the very same logic that is used when new classes appear to be overly penalised.
 
 
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