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iGRF View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 4:50pm
I'm not even sure it is expense, Dacron used to attract a heavy import duty of 12-14% as against mono film which is a none woven fabric (it's the fact weaving is involved it's an old duty to protect the mill owners from back in the day when we wove stuff here).

As to what they're doing, you have so many silly controls with all your pulling and pushing in different directions, I know shaped technical laminates don't like to change shape as much as Dacron will put up with, especially if you don't have those wire things to hold the rig still, then again they managed it after a fashion with the 100, but didn't that have bigger battens? I forget. Martin Wdhams told me why they did it, it was obvious at the time, I didn't question it and it didn't seem important, dacron is probably lighter than the cheaper alternative, mono film anyway, it's a sail, the boat is well priced who even cares?

Our Raceboard sails only really have the one control, which is downhaul and luff curve mismatch to get the sail to twist from a certain point, but designing a sail to do what you want in dinghies using just luff curve is a largely forgotten art for windsurf sail builders, since windsurfing these days is pretty much a planing only sport, so they don't cut much low end displacement drive in them, it took me three or four years to develop a race board sail that didn't just fall away when you applied downhaul with a combination of luff curve and broad seaming. I'd hate to have to do it for three different mast curves, that would take a long time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

Finn mast is massively stiff remember. I believe the aero is very flexible. Oh and the RS 300 is dacron... for about 10 inches back from the luff- its there to give stretch. 



Not sure that's factually correct either simon, the Finn mast is exactly how you spec it, you tell them exactly how you want it built.  Granted I suspect you would want it stiffer given the huge weight, but to say a Finn mast is massively stiff is a little generic for something so bespoke!

For me I'm just not sure what the problem is with saying we chose Dacron because it lasts longer and is cheaper.  That's what people buying a boat that's marketed as cheap want to hear.  

I am also fairly sure it's the panel layout and cut that make a sail work with a mast not the material.  If you feel a sample of odl04 and a Dacron sample the move and Bend the same way do they not?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by Telltale

So are we condemned to an opaque sail with an unstayed carbon stick


nope, apparently not.  There is an alternative.

But no, no moaning about use of dacron per say, just some questions over the real rationale and presentation to punters.  I guess if it is cost driven, then I'd rather just acknowledge that... no one is ever going to convince me that any Hyde one design sail is that amazing, or a technically driven innovation- they are always built to a price point imho.  Nothing 'wrong' with that approach either...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote boatbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by alstorer

There's moaning about them using specious bull**** when "we went with dacron as it will be cheaper and we can pass some of the saving onto the customer" would be well received.


+1.

Don't treat us as idiots with your marketing bs ... There are millions of flexible carbon spars supporting film sails around the world, us windsurfers have been doing this for decades.

If Dacron is cheap and robust and that suits your margins and institutional buyers great ... Please don't try and excuse it with obvious bollox.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 5:21pm
I'm not sure a flat, fully battened sailboard rig is proof that the Aero would be better in laminate. Most Merlin's and N12s still chose Dacron for the jib, so the material has some merit beyond cost. Mind you, the D Zero sail was laminate, so it must be possible (though I suspect the D Zero mast is stiffer).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Originally posted by SimonW99

Finn mast is massively stiff remember. I believe the aero is very flexible. Oh and the RS 300 is dacron... for about 10 inches back from the luff- its there to give stretch. 



Not sure that's factually correct either simon, the Finn mast is exactly how you spec it, you tell them exactly how you want it built.  Granted I suspect you would want it stiffer given the huge weight, but to say a Finn mast is massively stiff is a little generic for something so bespoke!

For me I'm just not sure what the problem is with saying we chose Dacron because it lasts longer and is cheaper.  That's what people buying a boat that's marketed as cheap want to hear.  

I am also fairly sure it's the panel layout and cut that make a sail work with a mast not the material.  If you feel a sample of odl04 and a Dacron sample the move and Bend the same way do they not?

Doesn't the D One have a film sail? The Ok and Finn. All una rigs with carbon masts. None I would call stiff ... 


Edited by 2547 - 03 Mar 14 at 5:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 5:23pm
Windsurfers are not dinghies folks... Comparing the two isn't productive.
 
Not defending RS here, just sayin'...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote solutiongirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 5:24pm
On the subject of marketing BS - what exactly do they mean when the brochure says:
"The transom shape has been fine tuned to ensure that the RS Aero planes bow up (analagous to the trim tabs on a powerboat stern)."

I'm not sure I can think of many classes that struggle with planing bow up - trident submarines spring to mind. Or perhaps the topper. I thought trim tabs were used on powerboats to lift the backside up so its not planing completely bow up and to act as horizontal stabilisers. Most classes solve that by expecting the helm to shift his weight in the boat.

The whole brochure reads like a series of euphamisms for "this is how we made it cheaper" but, barring the early-bird discount, the price isn't that low for the customer. I suppose they have to find some way to pay for the vast RS marketing machine.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by Peaky

I'm not sure a flat, fully battened sailboard rig is proof that the Aero would be better in laminate. Most Merlin's and N12s still chose Dacron for the jib, so the material has some merit beyond cost. Mind you, the D Zero sail was laminate, so it must be possible (though I suspect the D Zero mast is stiffer).


Dacron wins out over laminate for jibs due to the flogging they endure tacking and pre-start. Its a longevity thing.
Nick
D-Zero 316

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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 5:39pm
I am sure that the Halo had an original carbon set up before they went tin, I think the Icon did stuff with non tapered carbon masts as well, Simon has explained that floppy stayed boats or fully battened is do-able.

Yes you are right about the development Halo mast - it was originally carbon but the 'heavies' at that time lobbied for alloy on the grounds of cost.  Today the revised Halo sail sits on a regular 'Blaze' length mast - more convenient and obviously the best solution of all cost-wise.  

All masts we use, alloy or carbon on either Blaze or Icon are tapered.  In fact the carbon masts on both are essentialy identical with all fittings etc in similar positions.  The Icon version is simply 50mm longer below the gooseneck. If you were to cut the extra off the base of an Icon tube you have a standard Blaze tube. 

BTW - there are very expensive dacron materials and very affordable value films today - you use them where you need them.  Neither is necesarily 'better' - it all depends on what you are trying to achieve. 

Mike L.

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