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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: women's skiff
    Posted: 02 Nov 10 at 11:37pm
RS400

The 470 is a representative of the crewed dinghy, the Yngling is a representative of the keelboat.  Both those sectors are vastly more popular than skiff types. Look at the numbers of boats that turn up to national titles.  In the UK's top 25 classes there's 3 keelboats, 12 crewed dinghies, singlehanders, some cats and just one skiff type - the next most popular skiff types sit at 40th and 41st.

In the USA's top 25 most popular nationals, there's one skiff type (29er), and 11 crewed dinghies.  I think the next most popular is the I-14, with just 15 nationals entries last time around.

In Australia, where for decades some clubs have paid people to race Skiffs, there's just two skiff classes in the top 25, compared to eight crewed dinghies, 3 keelboats, 7 singlehanders, 3 cats and 2 windsurfers.  Many clubs have seen their skiff fleets disappear over the past 15 or so years.

Some of the biggest names in the sport have tried to make skiffs popular, and they have failed to make them anything more than a minority interest, even where they have been around for 100 years.  Fantastic boats, no doubt about it (first boat I ever sailed was my dad's champion 16 Foot Skiff) but they are not the way the sport is going.

There ARE places where twin-trapping in doublehanders has been around for 25 years, and more.  Those places have seen twin-trapping drop to about 20-50% of its former popularity over than time, so after 40 years of twin trapping it still only attracts a minority of dinghy sailors.  Similarly, my home town created the first wiring singlehander class and there's no such class here anymore.

The weightlifting analogy doesn't seem very accurate to me, because in most sports the Olympians use similar gear to amateurs.  Hussain Bolt runs along a track similar to the one near me and (I assume) near you.  I can swim in the pool used for the 2000 Games, and you'll probably be able to swim in the 2012 one.  Contador rides a bike that has the same strict (and drastically performance-reducing) rules as the one I ride.  

We don't see Olympic shooters using laser sights and machine guns to eradicate their targets, we don't see Olympic swimmers using buoyant suits (remember that outcry) and the most popular sports are the ones that people can relate to.

Skiffs are fantastic, but the fact is that no-where in the world, even where there is much more money pushing skiffs than conventional dinghies, are they attracting most sailors or a growing proportion of sailors.  Even here in Oz, the skiffs are shrinking.  The idea that they will be the 21st century class (as the Rebel site implies) is just ignoring the reality, which is that even at top level they are only a minority interest.


Edited by Chris 249 - 03 Nov 10 at 5:33am
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Slippery Jim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 8:48am

Ok. Point made. What else have you got to say?

What makes skiff sailing (in general) so unnattractive? Is it the fact that they don't sail well without continuous effort (either conscious or sub-conscious), or is it that they project this image? I know they don't appeal to everyone - my daughter sails a 420, inspite of my efforts to persuade her to try a 29er... Dead And she won't even entertain the thought of trying the 59er out on a light day, even if I offer to crew for her...

Pass the skiff, man!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dirtysailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 8:56am
Lots of people look at skiffs as something that are just too hard, when really, all you need to do is give it a go, hope you have a good skipper and have a bit of determination!
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Skiffman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 9:20am
I would also like to say that it looks a lot like the SK4 yet not as fast. Kev could make that SK4 go faster than us in our 49er and he would point higher... We had a go in it and it was ridiculously fast considering its just 13ft long and mk1

anyway hope the womans skiff does get into the games and the rebel gets the spot. Looks like a good boat but I still think they need to make them fast at tacking and not be impossible to throw around pre-start. The rakes look too low to the water to me but I am sure that Derek and Phil have thought of it all 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Slippery Jim

What makes skiff sailing (in general) so unnattractive?

Its something I've been puzzling over for thirty five years without coming up with any answers. The strangest thing of all is that the skiff types have never been as accessible or as easy to sail as they are now: light carbon spars, depowering rigs, sprit kites, bulletprof high tech construction, all the rest of it have made the top end boats easier to sail and own than they've ever been.

But for all that I suspect (Chris am I correct?) that there are less skiffs out on Sydney Harbour of a weekend now than there were thirty years ago in the days of fragile water-soaked wood pole kite boats which practically sank if you capsized and had such heavy rigs that if you let them heel more than twenty degrees they were practically certain to capsize.

Edited by JimC - 03 Nov 10 at 1:22pm
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hum3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Slippery Jim


What makes skiff sailing (in general) so unnattractive?




I don't think its unattractive per se, it's just that it is quite different to the boats all of us learnt to sail and race in. I know a couple top, very experienced 200 crews who are surprisingly nervous about crewing an 800, the fear factor ( swung round the front, boat capsizing to windward on a wire, the speed etc) being as relevant as anything else.

The upshot is that to get near the standard you were in you old class takes a lot of time and effort. You're basically a beginner again, but on an accelerated learning curve.

When you're used to being competitive, and suddenly you're faced with having to put in double time just to be midfleet, is it any wonder many just don't bother in today's time pressured society.

Also, skiffs are for racing, not a boat you can take non sailing friends young family out in, so not a boat a occasional sailor / racer would choose.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 10:12am
Maybe in Oz, it's too tied up with money and local politics and personalities.
Sponsorship is a great boost when it arrives, but a total flattener when it goes.
And Mr and Mrs Average don't want to compete against pro's perhaps?
 
And of course, the close tactical, technical racing that you get with slower boats is great fun too. If sailing was just about speed, we'd all be sailing cats or boards, but there's more to it than that. There is definitely room for both skiffs and traditional dinghies, using both labels fairly vaguely.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 10:50am
Originally posted by RS400atC

...There is definitely room for both skiffs and traditional dinghies...


I'm lucky - I currently have one of each!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 10:59am
hum3 makes the key point here "is it any wonder many just don't bother in today's time pressured society" time is the key issue. Unless you can sail at least once a week or are a god given sailing star, you are unlikely to be really competitive in Musto or a 9er although the 800 is surprisingly attainable for a lot of club sailors.

However if time is a big issue, slower more tactical boats are obviously easier to just jump in and sail. The big numbers will always be in the less skiffy boats for that reason. 400's, Merlins and 200's give you plenty of performance and attract large numbers because they look less complicated and don't generate the same 'fear' factor. Dependent on where you sail it is in the medium handicap fleets where the attendance is highest and these are full of wayfarers, visions and lasers etc. I had a vision for a number of years and yes it isn't particularly quick, stiff or light, but great all round family boat that still wins medium fleet races and zero maintainance. I would also take it out in conditions that would make me think twice in my 100. Its no surprise that boats that can deliver those aspects and are not expensive sell in container loads as the maximise time on the water in this time pressured world.

Personally I love to see big fleets of skiffs out as they look fantastic, but for all the reasons stated here, they will remain the preserve of a relatively small number of the overall sailing population.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote timeintheboat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 10 at 1:11pm
What is the difference between this and an RS800? The latter has always seems to be a well mannered, non-brutish and accessible to mixed crews.

If I (we) were 10 years younger, like swimming more and sailed on a bigger bit of water the RS800 would be on my list.

I don't get it.
Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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