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RS400 proposed changes

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    Posted: 11 Oct 10 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by Iain C

What on earth is the point in buying into a one-design class where suddenly all this kind of stuff appears?  I would be pretty peeved if I was an owner of a new "old" boat! 

Well if the boat stops selling then the class is going to die and your boat will be worth naff all anyway. Look at what 4 Tonners and 5 Tonners sell for - if you can find someone to buy one off you.

So it is in the long term interests of SMOD owners for their class to stay selling well and healthy, so a measured amount of change may be a good thing even if it hurts at the time. Of course its also possible for classes to get into a change frenzy, but that's another story.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 10 at 11:07pm
Hahahaha!!!  The only way for a SMOD to survive is to effectively be a slow changing development class.  Brilliant!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 10 at 11:35pm
just like the 49er... one design

with the square top mains, the reason they work well is that on skiff type boats that plane upwind you want a main/mast that will open when a gust hits. Back in the day this was done with a fibreglass top section which are very bendy but carbon is not. The square top main works well with a carbon mast because the mast is not bending as much when a gust hits due to the properties of carbon but the square top allows the top of the main to open. 

To give you an idea in the 49er the boat got a lot faster 6-12 knots with a carbon rig/square top main, its still faster in over 12 knots just not by quite so much. 

Not sure of the benefits in a non skiff boat like the rs100 or 400 but seems to work on anything quick
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 10 at 7:46am
Sorry, would I should have added to my post above is that it's also fair dinkum if a manufacturer does specify that that the sails have to be made by them...OK so they've invested in the tooling for the boat so in many ways that's OK.  I see why they might do this, personally it's not my preferred option, ...as for healthy classes, just look at all the traditional classes that do allow any loft to make the sails, which have been aroud a damned site longer than the RS400.  Perhaps RS should play the long game here...personally I would be far, far more tempted by a 400 if I knew I had this option.  Ok slightly less commercially attractive for RS, but surely much better for the class long term.

What I think is not right, is that having bought into the whole one design thing, suddenly the goal posts change.  Yes, they might sell some new boats, but I wonder how many people will say "sod this, I'm off to the Merlin Rocket fleet", and you just end up with a split 400 fleet and people scratching their heads and saying "why on earth would you buy an RS400?"  As for de-valuing the boats, just look at the 49ers since the big rig came in.  People say "not worth spending the money on a new rig" (OK it's £4000 not £1500) and just buy a new boat.  SMOD manufacturer one, loyal customer nil.

I can even understand a change of sail material, and cut, but to change the shape and justify it as "it looks better" is pretty poor.

Is it the RS Elite that can have sails from any loft?  Why is it OK there but not on the 400?  Did the customer base that comissioned it just put thier collective foot down?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 10 at 8:11am
i can see the future forum posts already about  the new bandit RS400 becuase of the new rig design and new bits or is it not a bandit if the builders make new sails???
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 10 at 8:25am
To be fair the only change that may make a tangible performance differance that cannot be retrofitted is the change in resin for the hull. This is madness.
 
The rest will make little differance, and if you wanted to you could retrofit.
 
The 49er was always going to affect the performance.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffybob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 10 at 8:43am
I agree with Iain. This is hypocracy at the highest level.
 
The whole sales argument for SMODs, and the one you ALWAYS here on this forum and in sailing clubs, is the one that "all boats are identical, so it's just down to the crew", and that it's no "cheque-book sailing".
 
This blows both arguments clean out of the water.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 10 at 10:03am
Plenty of non manufacturer owned one designs have a single sail maker - I own 2, the Firefly and the Lightning. By coming to an agreement with one sailmaker, the price can be agreed, you don't get someone spending thousands on sail development, and all the sails are the same. The difference is that the clas, if they don't like the price or the product any more, can go to a different sailmaker. In the case of the Firefly, this has happened once in 64 years! In the Lightnings, the same sailmaker since the start in 1977.
How the best of this can be translated into a fleet where the manufacturer decides who makes the sails I'm not sure, but I guess it would start with a good relationship between builder and CA.
 
To me, changing the sail and not the mast makes perfect sense. Masts can out live the boats, even. Sails at the level of sailing where people care how efficient the sail still is? Five years max? I guess the only people who are going to be miffed are those who bought a new sail very recently. As for a speed difference, I'd be interested to see whether there was one on a smallish puddle with lots of shifts and corners.
 
I assume the move to vinylester with no weight change is to increase hull life? In which case, how does it affect an old boat at all? Any reduction in 2nd hand value will be far less than that found in a dying class. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 10 at 10:35am
Can we anticipate the 600 getting a fancy new frock in the near future then?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hollandsd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 10 at 10:39am
Or being dropped.....
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