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'Weight on the Wire'

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    Posted: 27 Mar 09 at 8:53pm
Don'f forget that the PY returns are for all boats from that class, so the returns from the latest boats with the new developments will be diluted by returns from the older boats. So the PY wouldn't completely reflect how much faster the newer boats may be going.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mksimith2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 3:06am

Yes, you are right!!!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:03am

Originally posted by Flick-Flock

Don'f forget that the PY returns are for all boats from that class, so the returns from the latest boats with the new developments will be diluted by returns from the older boats. So the PY wouldn't completely reflect how much faster the newer boats may be going.

There would of course be a lag; but the graph does show 45 years so I think the developements have time to filter down.

What that graphs shows is either all the development in one-designs has given little or no speed improvement or that those classes have become h'cap bandits over time.

The development classes have shown a resonable improvements but I suspect a big chunk of that improvement has been through significant rule changes rather than development within the rules.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote tmoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:23am

The GP14 handicap has stayed the same even though the new FRP ones are clearly faster!!! Same goes for solo i would guess.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:28am
Originally posted by tmoore

The GP14 handicap has stayed the same even though the new FRP ones are clearly faster!!! Same goes for solo i would guess.

So what does that tell you?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by tmoore

The GP14 handicap has stayed the same even though the new FRP ones are clearly faster!!! Same goes for solo i would guess.

So what does that tell you?

It tells me that 1) there are still plenty of old GP's handicap racing, 2) many classes are developing better hulls so reletive handicaps are staying similar and 3) get a new GP if you want to win on handicap. Or a new Phantom, Solo, Streaker, Enterprise - infact almost anything new will be faster than class average. Therefore to win, spend some money. Or get good at sailing.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:40am

Rupert; you seem to be saying that all handicaps are basedlined against each other such that if everyone went 10% faster the PYs would be unchaged; I don't think that is the case and that all PYs would come down 10%.

But that isn't the case because the Laser hasn't got any faster (the XD controls don't do much for the speed just ease of use) so it seems to me that Jim's point is valid, i.e. one-design development has not achieved much ...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:09am

While the handicaps are based on time, the actual decisions on what boat has which handicap is based on how they do in results terms against other boats. Take a simple example. Boat A sails against boat B regularly, and it is found that on average boat A beats boat B by 2 minutes per hour. A handicap system is set up so that boat B can stand as much chance of winning as boat B. Boat A then adds a spinnaker, and now can beat boat B by 3 minutes an hour. Boat B thinks "I'll have one of them" and gains the minute back. The speed relationship between the boats hasn't changed enough for the handicap to change. If Boat B had decided not to add a spinnaker, then Boat A or boat B would have needed a handicap change to make things even.

Stiffer, lighter hulls on all boats would have the same effect, and if on enough of the boats around, chances are just as likely that the boats which haven't changed would be perceved as going slower, and so be given a better handicap. I guess the only boats to suffer in this are the old ones of classes which have allowed changes in hull construction to make them go faster, so that even with new sails they can't keep up.



Edited by Rupert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:12am
The point is Rupert we have an excellent baseline which hasn't changed which is the Laser
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Guest#260

The point is Rupert we have an excellent baseline which hasn't changed which is the Laser

Interestingly I've seen a post on SA recently from someone involved in building Lasers which laimed they have improved over the years - improved resins in the hull, more consistent construction, better QA were amongst the things mentioned...

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