| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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| Bruce Roberts classic 45 Valencia, Spain |
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| Free mast for Merlin Rocket - has a bend! Guildford |
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List classes of boat for sale |
'Weight on the Wire' |
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Flick-Flock
Posting king
Joined: 27 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 102 |
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Topic: 'Weight on the Wire'Posted: 27 Mar 09 at 8:53pm |
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Don'f forget that the PY returns are for all boats from that class, so the returns from the latest boats with the new developments will be diluted by returns from the older boats. So the PY wouldn't completely reflect how much faster the newer boats may be going.
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Swimming after Laser 5000 5069
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mksimith2
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Joined: 28 Mar 09 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 3:06am |
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Yes, you are right!!!
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http://www.dvdcollects.com
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Guest
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:03am |
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There would of course be a lag; but the graph does show 45 years so I think the developements have time to filter down. What that graphs shows is either all the development in one-designs has given little or no speed improvement or that those classes have become h'cap bandits over time. The development classes have shown a resonable improvements but I suspect a big chunk of that improvement has been through significant rule changes rather than development within the rules. Edited by Guest#260 |
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tmoore
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Joined: 01 Nov 07 Location: Wales Online Status: Offline Posts: 880 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:23am |
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The GP14 handicap has stayed the same even though the new FRP ones are clearly faster!!! Same goes for solo i would guess. |
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Landlocked in Africa
RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
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Guest
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:28am |
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So what does that tell you? |
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Rupert
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Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:35am |
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It tells me that 1) there are still plenty of old GP's handicap racing, 2) many classes are developing better hulls so reletive handicaps are staying similar and 3) get a new GP if you want to win on handicap. Or a new Phantom, Solo, Streaker, Enterprise - infact almost anything new will be faster than class average. Therefore to win, spend some money. Or get good at sailing. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Guest
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:40am |
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Rupert; you seem to be saying that all handicaps are basedlined against each other such that if everyone went 10% faster the PYs would be unchaged; I don't think that is the case and that all PYs would come down 10%. But that isn't the case because the Laser hasn't got any faster (the XD controls don't do much for the speed just ease of use) so it seems to me that Jim's point is valid, i.e. one-design development has not achieved much ... |
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Rupert
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Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:09am |
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While the handicaps are based on time, the actual decisions on what boat has which handicap is based on how they do in results terms against other boats. Take a simple example. Boat A sails against boat B regularly, and it is found that on average boat A beats boat B by 2 minutes per hour. A handicap system is set up so that boat B can stand as much chance of winning as boat B. Boat A then adds a spinnaker, and now can beat boat B by 3 minutes an hour. Boat B thinks "I'll have one of them" and gains the minute back. The speed relationship between the boats hasn't changed enough for the handicap to change. If Boat B had decided not to add a spinnaker, then Boat A or boat B would have needed a handicap change to make things even. Stiffer, lighter hulls on all boats would have the same effect, and if on enough of the boats around, chances are just as likely that the boats which haven't changed would be perceved as going slower, and so be given a better handicap. I guess the only boats to suffer in this are the old ones of classes which have allowed changes in hull construction to make them go faster, so that even with new sails they can't keep up. Edited by Rupert |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Guest
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:12am |
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The point is Rupert we have an excellent baseline which hasn't changed which is the Laser
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:52am |
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Interestingly I've seen a post on SA recently from someone involved in building Lasers which laimed they have improved over the years - improved resins in the hull, more consistent construction, better QA were amongst the things mentioned... Edited by JimC |
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