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    Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

HISC numbers are their own little island though.
Only to be discussed in the context of other HISC numbers.
What do you actually race against, and what's their HISC number?


Oh I'm not arguing it's less fair. It's all relative, other have come down to (but not by as much, barng the moth). My point was more about how arbitrary the numbers are, but that shouldn't make it less fun if you appreciate handicap racing for what it is.  
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

And allow freedom of toestrap fittings, centre toestraps only work for tall people.....


That made me smile as I always thought the opposite :)

Central toe strap is too close to the sides, so I have to jam my toes under the plastic strip on the leeward side to be able to hike.

Don't be silly.........
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

And allow freedom of toestrap fittings, centre toestraps only work for tall people.....


That made me smile as I always thought the opposite :)

Central toe strap is too close to the sides, so I have to jam my toes under the plastic strip on the leeward side to be able to hike.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 8:30pm
HISC numbers are their own little island though.
Only to be discussed in the context of other HISC numbers.
What do you actually race against, and what's their HISC number?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 7:37pm
The 200's new sails aren't any quicker. Or, at least aren't any quicker than a old set with same wear. At the time I was very vocal about keeping the actual difference in performance and the perceived performance as close as possible. I think the class did a very good job of this. 

There are new 200 hulls too. Identical on the underside, but the topside has very minor changes for aesthetics and durability. I think they might be stiffer in the long run, and possibly a fraction quicker, but nothing you'd notice in a club race. 

I think all one-designs, if they want to stay relevant have to make changes. A lot are forced upon them. But a lot of thought needs to be made about why the changes are being made and how they tally with classes niche.

Ironically, the 200 handicap has gone from 1106 to 1048 at HISC over the years I've been sailing there. Which makes the discussion of new sail fabric undermining one design, whilst lauding the handicap system quite laughable. I don't mind, whether I'm a minute further ahead or behind in a handicap race won't change my enjoyment of it. 
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 7:01pm
Mr RS400's post above makes more sense than an arms race, unless of course buying new kit in any class is an arms race. Spending money on kit, not using that 20 year old jib, how dare you?

You could say I started an arms race in the Minisail fleet. I bought 3 new sails in 4 years. 2 I sold to others in the fleet, one with a boat attached. I have recently bought another, and various others have been seen around the place, by a couple of different makers. Hopefully Ian Morgan has been able to feed his family for a few days off the proceeds.

All these sails are a step change faster than the dish rags the boats used to sail with. My handicap appears to have dropped because of this, though it appears others have been more lucky! Should I have asked Ian to make the sail from an old bedsheet to keep things fair?

Of course, we don't have an issue with replica sails, as sail making is open. But nor do Lasers, as all that needs to be done is a protest made,and the club will need to sort out it's sailing instructions to clarify the situation concerning boats that look like Lasers but aren't.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 5:41pm
Are any of these Laser performance boosts really any bigger than changing a year-old RS400 jib for a new one?
I don't think so.
But all Laser(oid) sails age quickly compared with many other boats, because they get dragged around the floor rigging and de-rigging, and left flapping because you can't drop the sail.
And let's face it, even the best of the replicas seem to be made of low tech cloth which won't  hold it's shape as a modern cloth might.
Hence the latest 'cheat' sail is likely a tad quicker than the previous one, which has now been used a bit.
Having a Laser sub-fleet where people are all keen and using newish sails will raise their performance, because boat-on-on boat matched racing gives you instant feedback and improves your racing. People who paid out their pocket money on new sails will also be those who are motivated to turn up and try harder.
If you get three or four of any reasonable class in a PY fleet, they tend to do quite well.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by jeffers

but but but...the new carbon top section doesn't make any difference guv' and its the same weight and stiffness honest guv' same with the new sail...it is not faster than the old one guv' trust me....

Well, its not particularly hard to get a carbon/glass Laser topmast the same weight and stiffness as an alloy one. You start by getting the stiffness right, which isn't too hard as its an untapered tube, and then you add layers of pretty much non functional glass 'til its the right weight.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by iGRF

no ones bought the new carbon top,

but but but...the new carbon top section doesn't make any difference guv' and its the same weight and stiffness honest guv' same with the new sail...it is not faster than the old one guv' trust me....

It’s incremental progress- a bit like the XD upgrades in the late 90’s.  All voted in via the ILCA due process overseen by World Sailing.  It’s hardly cloak and dagger stuff.  

If some folks want to believe the bullsh*t claims needed to passify a few neighsayers who probably don’t even sail the boat, then let them go for it.... personally I think the incremental progress could be sped up a bit, but I respect the process behind this, and the reasons for slowing down change.
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 2:33pm
remove corners on sides of cockpit too.
extended rudder too ?
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