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Nice new Laser for Christmas

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nice new Laser for Christmas
    Posted: 30 Nov 14 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by iGRF

So, getting back to the bit where I told you all long ago, there is no such thing as 'fair' One Design racing and the top guys that win, usually have some form of 'cheat' going on. It's been that way ever since the Windsurfer Class in my world, and we knew back then the Laser world was the same.

I can't believe it has been so publicly admitted for profit, but there you go, you can tell me now.

iGRF was right all along.

There are some cheats, but the idea that winners at national level are usually cheats is completely bollox in my experience. And since in some top SMODs the winners don't even get to use their own gear at the major world events, there's no room to cheat.

In one major SMOD, for example, each team swaps boats between every heat, or every couple of heats. This is done on the beach, in the full view of every other competitor. There is simply no way of modifying or replacing the gear that wouldn't involve some very tricky conjuring tricks under the eyes of the rest of the fleet.

At the Laser worlds you used to be allocated a boat that you shared with another competitor, sailing in the other group. You'd have to modify or replace gear that someone else was keeping an eagle eye on, and do it in the same dinghy park that your fellow competitors are using.

After some 45 years of SMOD world titles, there's have been plenty of chances to this sort of cheating to be exposed (because of course all your competitors have motivation and opportunity to expose such cheating) and I think I may have heard or one or two instances, sometime back in the '70s or something.

So if this is going on, either just about no one has ever made the tiniest error in the difficult business of cheating, or they have made such an error but no one in the fleet has noticed and bothered to protest. The idea therefore fails the common sense test.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 12:53am
When I talk of 'top guys' I'm referring to International Level sailors, I could name lots and their 'cheats' from tuned battens to special centreboards, being the supplier of kit to events its amazing what you find out on inspection of it at the return and nothing I've seen since i've experienced the full joys of dinghy sailing gives me any thought that what went on, probably still going on, in the International Windsurfing Race scene, was confined to that specific arena when it comes to specially 'tuned' One Design gear. We Brits didn't do anything like what the rest of the world did including some of you cheating b**tards from down under, so don't come the innocent with me.

Edited by iGRF - 01 Dec 14 at 12:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 2:06am
The biggest difference 5 mm of mast height etc makes is between the ears. 

BUT, if you are sailing that way, with a boat you know is lighter, or a mast rake that is optimum, then you are missing the bigger picture of what Laser racing can be.

I love being in a class where the difference in boat speed is minimal. I jumped in a crappy old club boat recently and had two guns from two over a pretty new boats. Have sailed in the northern and southern hemisphere and have not been aware of any cheating.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 6:50am
I am told by a reliable source that if you follow the trial of companies for Sailboats and LP they all lead back to the same person....
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Null View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 7:16am
Chris249 I see you say in your post laser used to supply competitors with boats for worlds etc.  I think the word 'used'. I think at the last worlds in Santander competitors supplied their own kit......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 8:40am
Originally posted by ds2

Originally posted by L123456


Originally posted by Bruce

Advertising lighter weight and differences in mast rake is a BIG concern, and maybe the UKLA should declare the boats sold as that way as not legal because they are against the spirit of the Laser class.

Lighter weight & special mast rake ... WTF is going on here ....
This is completely against what Laser sailing is all about ... is this for real?


I am afraid it is.

So are these "super" lasers class legal?

How much lighter are they?

What does ukla say about this?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 8:54am

Originally posted by Noah

Originally posted by Null

 

If in fact it's not true, then surely their ad is in breach of some advertising guidelines?

 

But the advert doesn't state what it is lighter than, nor by how much...

Regardless of that they are actually insinuating that it is lighter than 'Other' New Lasers. The ad is littered with breaches of the CAP advertising code:

"

3.1

Marketing communications must not materially mislead or be likely to do so.

3.2

Obvious exaggerations (“puffery”) and claims that the average consumer who sees the marketing communication is unlikely to take literally are allowed provided they do not materially mislead.

3.3

Marketing communications must not mislead the consumer by omitting material information. They must not mislead by hiding material information or presenting it in an unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely manner.

"

Or maybe, just maybe they are right and Laser sailing is not as 'One design' As we all thought.....

I would personally plump that the ad is the BS and UKLA or whomever manages the Laser class need to be all over this sh*t!!!

I am sure there are tolerances within Lasers (i am positive) But this ad really does ake sailing look like a joke!

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 8:57am
Originally posted by iGRF

When I talk of 'top guys' I'm referring to International Level sailors, I could name lots and their 'cheats' from tuned battens to special centreboards, being the supplier of kit to events its amazing what you find out on inspection of it at the return and nothing I've seen since i've experienced the full joys of dinghy sailing gives me any thought that what went on, probably still going on, in the International Windsurfing Race scene, was confined to that specific arena when it comes to specially 'tuned' One Design gear. We Brits didn't do anything like what the rest of the world did including some of you cheating b**tards from down under, so don't come the innocent with me.

Since I started my post by saying "there are some cheats" it's completely baffling why you would think I was innocent. I have been deeply involved in the class you mention and I have raced against many of those you would have raced against. 

The winners at national level in International classes are almost by definition also "international level sailors". I know for a fact that there was NO cheating by those who win nationals in some classes, and I'm extremely confident that the same can be said for many classes. For example, my arch-rivals in at least classes have been on the podium in world titles (the Masters, in one case) and after racing against these guys for years I am very confident that they are completely honest.

The fact that some top level people cheat (which I did not deny) does not mean that the winners are usually cheating, which is what you said. 


Edited by Chris 249 - 01 Dec 14 at 9:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 9:06am
Every time you rock or ooch, you cheat, give me the name of one of them that doesn't do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 14 at 9:15am
Originally posted by iGRF

Every time you rock or ooch, you cheat, give me the name of one of them that doesn't do that.

Plenty of extremely honest competitors rock and ooch very hard - in classes where it is allowed. Others may pump as hard as they can within their best judgement of where the rules alloow, and they sometimes may do it harder than other people think they should. The fact that opinions differ does not mean that anyone has cheated. This is of course very different from blatant cheating, which does go on.


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