Starboard Rounding Windward Mark Incident

Brass - I don't disagree with the practicalities which you state above in terms of the protest committee, and some umpires.....

Originally posted by JimC Why should P have any protection? In the zone rule 18 is the predominant rule, and rule 18 is clear that P never had any rights of any description. !

Edited by Brass - 27 May 13 at 3:04pm

Don't disagree with that either Gordon.  Although it is my assumption that by tacking clear ahead and to leeward P has fulfilled her obligation under 10, 13 and 15.

Sargesail, it doesn't seem desirable to me that a boat that chooses to undertake the very high risk activity of tacking in the zone in front of a ROW boat should have any confidence that they have any rights.

For ordinary club sailors like me I think it's probably best considered like taking water you aren't entitled to if a gap opens up - if you get away with it fine, but if you don't you just have to put your hand up and take your penalty. After all there can be few situations where one *must* tack in the zone,in most cases its going to be a tactical decision, so its not unreasonable. Match and team races OTOH are places I will not go...

Its a hopelessly pointless - indeed dangerous - exercise to try and double think what one thinks the rules ought to be trying to say, but while I agree in the rules there's a general tendency that a boat holding a steady course does not have to anticipate what another boat will do, this isn't the situation here. It would not seem out of line with the general thread of things that a boat that elects to tack in the zone should be required to anticipate that a boat approaching the mark on a steady course to round the mark will continue to sail that course and round the mark, especially as the rules clearly state that in the situation where a boat was not clear ahead when she entered the zone then she may at any time have to give water.
To me, as a definite rules amateur, I think that's the important point: the rules say you must give mark room if you were not clear ahead, rather than you need only give mark room if the other boat is overlapped*. So before they tack P already knows that they must give mark room to any boat that gains an overlap, no matter when, and surely they must judge their tack accordingly and its not unreasonable to expect them to anticipate the results of their manouver.
Conversely S knows that if they gain an overlap at any stage of the proceedings they are entitled to mark room, and shouldn't be require to anticipate the possibility that P may get themselves in a situation where they are unable to give it. Your interpretation of rule 10/13/15/18 seems to me to make for an awful lot of switching off and on of ROW in fractions of a second, and its very hard for this rules amateur to believe that's desirable or even the correct interpretation.

Looking back on old rules I must say that I think the rules people are doing a good job, and I'm glad I don't have to sail the boats I do now with the rules as they were when I was 17... I see, especially on US forums, people bewailing how the rules have been made worse, but I don't find that at all. Apropos of that, I'm sure I saw recently, although I foolishly didn't make a mental note of who and where, a quote from one of the mid 20thC greats, maybe Uffa, to the effect that the merger with the US rules had made everthing too complicated and aggressive and things had been better when they sailed under the old British rules, which I think more nearly approached colregs.

*a crucial thing I've learned from this thread

Edited by JimC - 27 May 13 at 7:52pm

When P reaches a close hauled course she acquires ROW. She must initially give S room to keep clear. Room, under the nex definition includes space to comply with her obligations under rule 31 i.e. not touch the mark.

As to the debate amongst umpires I believe that the "I gave room beacause the other boat didn't hit me" is somewhat of a cop-out, making life much easier for umpires. The most difficult moment to judge is when a boat establishes an overlap from clear astern inches/centimetres to leeward of the other boat. If the now keep clear boat cannot chnage course to keep clear without immediately making contact then I believe that she has not been given room.