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Advertising via sail numbers? 55

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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advertising via sail numbers? 55
    Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:00am
Originally posted by sargesail

 

But in a sense it makes me see James point about PY: the 800 races with new gear without a penalty because there is PY lag (if there is a statistically significant performance advantage to drive change over time).  A development class can, if class rules allow make much bigger changes and race off the same PY.  The lag may well be longer because these classes tend not to add much data.

it's worth qualifying that point of view though.... in a race designed to be just a bit of fun to bring some disparate classes together on the same start line (or finish line in a pursuit!) for a celebration of sailing;much like the ethos of the John Merricks Charity Pursuit Race (aka the Tiger Trophy), does it really matter that there is a level of inaccuracy in it?  If it is glaringly obvious, then of course the local RO can adjust, which is exactly what the Great Lakes scheme does in fact; bringing the system back to within levels of acceptable deviation for the majority of participants.

The problems occur when people take the handicap racing too seriously.  The system is not geared to cope with the level of scrutiny applied by such people- the statistics and real-world qualitative feedback is testament to that.  Two winners under the internet witch-hunt in as many years, constant criticism of 'bandits', folks calling for boats to be declared 'out of class' when their own manufacturer AND class association have granted temporary approval to a pending minor change.  

I've been critical of PY myself, but on reflection that's because I was taking it way to seriously at the time- probably because I was sailing a new class with limited class racing and I looked to the handicap events and handicap racing in my club to provide a similar 'level playing field' to class racing.  I was missing the point of the PY system... it could never do that, it doesn't pretend to do that; but it does bring its own merits in other ways and 100 boats out in the middle of silly sh*tty cold season.... well, that's good as long as people approach it with the right attitude.   It's also quite ironic that at the time of the Merlin kerfuffle I was also supporting the 'retire'/hard line' rules approach... unwittingly sailing myself, out of class, with tapered sheets!

The purpose of PY is bring people together, but this hardline approach is driving us apart..... 


Edited by pondmonkey - 14 Feb 13 at 9:11am
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:27am
I don't think the debate is about PY itself, but about sportmanship. Do you knowingly break the SIs when entering a race when you might hope to win it?
Also to add to your point, my understanding is that the SJ has biased PY reference points towards the winners, rather than the majority, thereby reinforcing the seriousness of the events. We had a big debate on this a while back.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:38am
To resume:

-if the sails do not conform to class rules

and

-if neither the competitor, the class nor the sailmaker made any effort to inform the race committee;

then the sailing instruction requiring boats to conform to their class rules has been broken.

If this rule has been broken deliberately then this should be considered as gross misconduct.

If it is established to the comfortable satisfaction of the protest committee that the competitor has committed gross misconduct then they can issue a warning or impose a penalty.

That is a lot of ifs (no buts!)

Personally I believe that the RYA should be asked to deal with this issue, and then publish agreed guidelines on theorganisation of major handicap and pursuit events. Maybe, when there are more than, say, 100 boats then there should be a National Measurer present to follow up any allegations.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:40am
Well STOP PRESS: Sailboats.co.uk simply don't give a f*ck what you think:

http://www.facebook.com/Sailboats.co.uk

Page Status update from yesterday:

"Looking forward to getting back on the water after the first victory of the campaign at the Tiger Trophey, Brearey Sailing and Christian Birrell will be in action in Fireball 555 down at Hayling Island SC (HISC) for the pursuit race and some sail testing! Good Luck lads"

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:46am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Well STOP PRESS: Sailboats.co.uk simply don't give a f*ck what you think:

Oh well, bearing in find the bit in the fundamental rule that gives sailors a responsibility to enforce the RRS I suppose that I had better be a ******** and write a letter to Rutland SC with a report of a potential gross breach of sportsmanship. From there of course its up to them...

Edited by JimC - 14 Feb 13 at 9:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:50am
.

Edited by r2d2 - 14 Feb 13 at 5:32pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:51am
Looks like anyone entering the PP who cares about this should submit a protest. Should be lots of them, if we don't have 49 pages of hot air.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:51am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by pondmonkey

Well STOP PRESS: Sailboats.co.uk simply don't give a f*ck what you think:

Oh well, bearing in find the bit in the fundamental rule that gives sailors a responsibility to enforce the RRS I suppose that I had better write a letter to Rutland SC with a report of a potential gross breach of sportsmanship. From there of course its up to them...

Maybe you should, and considering the response the sails have received on here and the fact that they are being so blatant about heading to Hayling with not a single toss given, shows a level of disrespect I would draw a line at....  

edit: I got in before you edit Jim, I think you can take those "*****" self descriptors out, at least you would be putting action to words, and I wouldn't knock that.     Thumbs Up  That Facebook status has got my goat tbh... causing controversy and not having the courtesy to be a little demure after the fact, rather than cock-a-hoop, well it doesn't sit right for me.  If Sailboats.co.uk and their phoney sailmaker brand want to do some testing, blatently disregarding the reaction from fellow competitors, perhaps they should f**k off somewhere else!!! 
 






Edited by pondmonkey - 14 Feb 13 at 9:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:52am
As for the class permitted trials. I bet my bottom dollar that I'd the phantom class permitted a 3m extra sail area as a class approved trial and that person won you lot would be screaming blue murder at me. Class approved trials should be kept at class only events.

You may be right Jimbo about the arguments, however you may be wrong also in that by not abiding by the rules that you have agreed to, also can drive a large wedge between people too. Why bother with the rules. Have a free for all, do what you want, it doesn't matter, its only a fun event after all.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 9:53am
"You have not won the race if, in winning it, you lose the respect of your competitors"  - Paul Elvstrom
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