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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: V Twin
    Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 8:52pm
There's as much chance of me sailing with a 'sausage up the mast' as any of you becoming windsurfing world champion in the near future. I'd sooner drift out to sea, never to be seen or heard of again.

But that exploding sausage device, how does that work then? Inflates on contact? Not when it gets wet I hope, how is it triggered? Pressure? Motion sensor?

Edit: 

Right, that's sorted for now, then, just hope it's enough to stop it going right over and I'll take my chance if I have to swim for it, the more unlikely scenario imv.
I shall still inflate the wings and teflon balls in the the mast sounds like a good call as well.



Edited by G.R.F. - 25 Apr 12 at 9:05pm
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bferry View Drop Down
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Posts: 190 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bferry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 8:11pm
Was thinking of a foam sausage perhaps which could be stored in the racks and then hoisted when required.  Would also make the racks buoyant as a plus.
Bernard
Vareo 249
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I luv Wight View Drop Down
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Posts: 628 		Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 8:01pm
or this?
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Catalogue~Secumar_Anti_Inversion_Airbag_Mast_Float_20L_Volume~p_KSK20~c4875.html

http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
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Posts: 452 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ham4sand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 7:59pm
like this?
John Hamilton
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bferry View Drop Down
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Posts: 190 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bferry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by tickler

I still go with my inflatable bag and hull mounted gas tank. that is a simple and presumably cheap modification which would provide mast head floatation without tying an airbed to it. Mind you sailing in with a deflated giant condom hanging in the shrouds would be a bit like the walk, or rather sail of shame.....


What about a system that you can hoist to the top of the mast when inverted. I.e. a series of floats that would be fitted to the base of the mast or hull whilst sailing and then hoisted via halyard to the top of the mast to provide buoyancy.  Once the boat is upright these can be released back down.  It sounds a lot like science fiction, but this discussion seems to be talking new/experimental concepts to an age old problem.....the seemingly dreaded turtle.
Bernard
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 7:56pm
Well the rig thing: The mast could be secured by a UJ as in windsurfing, so the base wouldn't come adrift if a halyard were slackened to let the mast fall one way or the other. It would also assist an auto rake system, I'm sure some sort of pulley arrangement could be worked out to re hoist it once upright, not sure if I'm ready for this one yet, but it's definitely a consideration.

I'd thought more about the wing buoyancy, if it were over and one could be released, then the other remaining in place might tilt it sufficiently to get an angle on the centreboard to get some weight on.

I am wondering about cutting the side tanks about, especially if it could be done in a way I get to chuck out some weight, it's a foam sandwich construction, which in itself floats without tanks, it would probably be pricey and if i were to go for cutting it about there are some other things i'd also change.

But before all that it needs a few more goes as it is, with at least one go with all the rig controls working the way they should, just to see how it does go, to satisfy the atrocities of this world and of course my own pleasure, no point slogging along at the speed of a vision just for the ease of the ride, although i must say it was a whole lot faster than had i been in a Blaze or an RS100 and a darn sight easier. I didn't actually get to swap tacks with anyone, I'd started late and gone the wrong way, the buoy they'd laid whilst i was out messing about had drifted and the course had become a typical Hythe very short Fetch, fetch, run, Contender Course, they love their fetches and tight reaches.
Whilst i was hooning about while they readied for the race it seemed better than on the pace to most i came alongside, it pointed as high as the merlin, and the Phantom, overtook a laser, that's about all i recall, i can't say paying attention to anyone else other than not smashing into them was much on my mind, it's quite a white knuckle ride.
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tickler View Drop Down
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Posts: 895 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 7:49pm
I still go with my inflatable bag and hull mounted gas tank. that is a simple and presumably cheap modification which would provide mast head floatation without tying an airbed to it. Mind you sailing in with a deflated giant condom hanging in the shrouds would be a bit like the walk, or rather sail of shame.....
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

A lot to sift through here, some good ideas and excellent hindsite, a skill I'm becoming increasingly expert at.

The boat has bulkheads, I guess it wouldn't be difficult to ensure the side tanks flooded, but then they would both have to flood, then er wouldn't that be called 'sinking?'.

it's only as daft as the  floor 'tank' in some ribs  that fills as you slow or stop to sit the boat 'down' in the water 

does the V twin have 'excess' buoyancy  and if so how much ?  or is  it a case of moving where the buoyancy is 

the design does appear to have the inherent inverted stability  that you'd expect from a cat ... 

I also suspect you can't 'unstick'  by  sinking an aft corner , as seems to help some more conventional dinghies 

The reason all this is taking the time it is, is because I wouldn't dream of taking it out without rescue cover and had already briefed the boys in the boat that it would likely be difficult to right and if I did go over, only sort me out after any or everyone else is sorted.
<snip>
So some conclusions that I now draw from all this.

1) Dinghys are made to go over deliberately easily so they can be easily righted, I wish someone had told me that.


thus is the inherent nature of an unballasted sailing boat with a fixed to it rig 

2) If they do go over it is better that they sink, at least partially, (now I understand the logic behind the Alto, not that it goes over often but if it does it comes up full of water which always irritated me in the past)

while it;s  easy to think you can never have 'too much' buoyancy ...  it;s relatively easy to do this in a dinghy - while some older designs  were marginal at best ( especially  as originally built with all bag  buoyancy e.g Ent ) 

3)Windsurfing rigs that just fall over flat are so much better than these stupid things with wires holding them up, maybe I should just rethink how the mast is held up and fix it so it falls over rather than the whole thing going over, it would also solve the getting away from me problem if I did happen to fall in.

i think the problem there is the case of getting the mast  back to upright and central once you've 'banged out'  through whatever method 
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 7:29pm
The Catapult was also what I had in mind when I mentioned Teignmouth Electric - the latter was meant to have an auto release on rig/sheets to prevent capsize.

Now if you were to rig lots of Merlin style rig adjustment, but with the option to adjust on a single line, on a single shroud then you have a foolproof method of righting/preventing turtle.  Doesn't help when it's gone all the way tho.

Matt
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 12 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by Atrocity


There has been much discussion over the past few days regarding getting the thing upright after a capsize, but nothing said about how it was going prior to the incident.  Looking at the photos there was no shortage of wind (looks like a full force 4), and a good range of boats from which to measure against (RS400, 470, Contender, Merlin Rocket, RS Vision and Lasers).  I would be really interested in how the boat was performing relative to the competition. 

The key question is, were you swapping tacks with the RS400 (in which case the project has legs and a solution to the capsize issue is worth pursuing) or swapping tacks with the Vision (in which case it may be time to cut your losses and buy a Vareo, because if it didn't go in that wind then the time and effort making it easily rightable will be to no avail).

Atrocity

Depends who's sailing the Vision! Those things go all right with a good helm and a crew on the wire.
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