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    Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Chew my RS

I meant to add "Thanks Jim, I'd like to take you up on that offer". 

Also, I don't think I've made this explicitly clear, but the way I envisage it is that once you have bought your boat from whichever manufacturer you chose you can't then tinker with it (beyond the usual SMOD restrictions).  In other words if you buy the RS400 you can't then get flatter sails made by someone else, or change the mast etc.  Equally if you chose Toppers offering, you can't modify that.  Your choice of design is made upfront.  The only exception to this would be if a manufacurer made a "class" change that changed the design of that particular sub-class of boat, in which case existing owners could upgrade,  i.e. design changes are made on a "sub-class" basis by the manufacturer, not by individual sailors to individual boats.

This was getting interesting, but I don't agree with the restrictions you propose above - what would be the point in restricting sail type for instance. I think Jim has it about right. Other big issues might include materials . Carbon, epoxy, kevlar etc are not the usual domain of the mass builders so allowing them, whilst desirable in many ways, may limit their participation. Sails with a Carbon scrim are a fraction of the weight of standard and if allowed would give an immediate advantage regardless of other factors. Plenty of food for thought - and I think you'll have a hard time getting any major builders to join in, not least as they could be frightened of not coming up with the best design / materials / rig / sailors and thus getting a reputation as slow / poor / rubbish etc - too much to lose, too little to gain.

I wish you luck but as they say on the Dragons Den, 'I won't be investing'



Edited by Hector
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 8:49am

I meant to add "Thanks Jim, I'd like to take you up on that offer". 

Also, I don't think I've made this explicitly clear, but the way I envisage it is that once you have bought your boat from whichever manufacturer you chose you can't then tinker with it (beyond the usual SMOD restrictions).  In other words if you buy the RS400 you can't then get flatter sails made by someone else, or change the mast etc.  Equally if you chose Toppers offering, you can't modify that.  Your choice of design is made upfront.  The only exception to this would be if a manufacurer made a "class" change that changed the design of that particular sub-class of boat, in which case existing owners could upgrade,  i.e. design changes are made on a "sub-class" basis by the manufacturer, not by individual sailors to individual boats.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 8:18am

Sorry SS, I see where you are coming from, but I agree with JimC on this. There's only so much rig innovation that can be applied to a single hull as the mast and centreboard positions are fixed. There is less incentive for Topper and Laser (for example) to make identical hulls and leave it to the mast makers and sail makers to innovate.  You end up with the fireball, 47o etc.

Some restrictions I would like to see include banning fixed rudders, limiting the rig to a single set of spreaders (maybe diamonds as well), and limitations on the depth/aspect ratio of foils.  I also agree with earlier comments that excess tippyness should be avoided, perhaps by setting a minimum waterline beam or metacentric height (which is a function of beam squared and is indicitive of initial stability).

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Post Options Post Options   Quote swiftsolo.org Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 1:26am

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by swiftsolo.org

[The hull design would be owned by the class - not a single manufacturer. Therefore several manufacturers could build class hulls.


But there's about 99 classes like that already...

I agree but most of them are highly restrictive about other aspects of the boat. This class would allow innovation in these areas 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 1:13am
Originally posted by swiftsolo.org

[The hull design would be owned by the class - not a single manufacturer. Therefore several manufacturers could build class hulls.


But there's about 99 classes like that already...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 1:05am
"I like to know that I'm sailing the boat that is as fast as it could possibly be."

So you're obviously going to get out of Cherubs to get something with fewer rules and more speed; are you going to a 12' skiff, or an A Class, or a Formula board, or a foiler Moth, or a Formula 16?




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Post Options Post Options   Quote swiftsolo.org Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 06 at 12:59am

Originally posted by JimC

To have a one design hull would miss the point completely, and you'd have zero chance of getting multiple builders on board which would be the point of a formula class.

I think you are missing the point I have been trying to make. The hull design would be owned by the class - not a single manufacturer. Therefore several manufacturers could build class hulls. For people that wanted an off the shelf product the manufacturers could differentiate themselves by the innovations they brought out in other areas of the boat - rigs, foils, control lines etc. 

Originally posted by JimC

The point about a formula class for a large manufacturer is that there'd need much less work in the marketing to build a new class, and, once the class is started, much less risk of an abject failure than trying to build a new class. Hopefully too the total market would be bigger - maybe our two suppliers each only sell half of the new boats in a class, but a popular class could have ten or twenty times the numbers of one that doesn't come off. Better to have 50% of 200 boats a year than 100% of 20... And I bet the marketing component of the price of a boat is pretty signifcant - I know at the height of the Sailboard boom it was 30% plus of the price of a board...

All of these benefits apply to the model I have proposed as well.

Originally posted by JimC

The formula 18 is one of the most popular Cat classes in the UK, the concept must have some legs...
 

The F18s are very popular here in OZ as well. I agree it is a good concept as long as the rules are framed strongly enough to prevent extreme designs emerging which discourage the average sailor. I just believe my proposal makes it easier to control the class - with the downside that ultimately the hull design will date    


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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 11:01pm
To have a one design hull would miss the point completely, and you'd have zero chance of getting multiple builders on board which would be the point of a formula class.

The point about a formula class for a large manufacturer is that there'd need much less work in the marketing to build a new class, and, once the class is started, much less risk of an abject failure than trying to build a new class. Hopefully too the total market would be bigger - maybe our two suppliers each only sell half of the new boats in a class, but a popular class could have ten or twenty times the numbers of one that doesn't come off. Better to have 50% of 200 boats a year than 100% of 20... And I bet the marketing component of the price of a boat is pretty signifcant - I know at the height of the Sailboard boom it was 30% plus of the price of a board...

The formula 18 is one of the most popular Cat classes in the UK, the concept must have some legs...




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Post Options Post Options   Quote swiftsolo.org Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 10:05pm

Unless people are very smart with rules open development on the hull will lead to fast but extreme designs which will limit the appeal of the class.

Surely the way to go is to fix the hull shape and allow innovation in the other areas. Maybe to get some initial numbers selected SMOD hulls could be grandfathered into the class?    

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 06 at 6:02pm
I think that getting large manufacturers interested would be tricky, unless someone high up in that company wanted to race in the class or they wanted a flagship boat for publicity. (An extreme class might work better for this e.g. F18)

Commersialy it makes little sence to go for a new evolving desing over a new SMOD.

With the SMOD you have an initial investment in  (Expensive) hull, rig, tooling designe and then construction of prototype and tooling. You then get to approach mass production with the cost savings involved.

If you start a formula class you have the same initial investment as a smod but, not only is your market smaller (For it to work you need more than one manufacturer) but there needs to be ongoing design work in order to bring out the Mark II hulls and sails and foils. Tooling needs modification etc

I like the Idea but getting it past the bean counters would be I think difficult.

The swift solo has the right idea it is designed as a home build, in 5 years time when the class is big enough a manufacturer may be tempted into setting up to build in the class and you are off but the start is difficult.




Edited by Granite
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