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Amateur Sailor of the Year
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Poll Question: Who will win?
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Oct 18 at 10:17pm
More revealing is the 2016 GP Worlds held in Barbados. Out of 105 entries only 13 were non UK/Ireland boats. The best finish  was 28th from a Barbadian boat and, apart from the UK, Ireland, and Barbados SA boats the only others were 3 Aus boats and a single Canadian entry.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 18 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

More revealing is the 2016 GP Worlds held in Barbados. Out of 105 entries only 13 were non UK/Ireland boats. The best finish  was 28th from a Barbadian boat and, apart from the UK, Ireland, and Barbados SA boats the only others were 3 Aus boats and a single Canadian entry.

And why does any of that worry the rest of us?
A championship with over 100 entries is still a great event. It still takes a bit of talent to win it. A lot of classes would do well to respect that.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 18 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by bustinben

You seem to be suggesting that it's easy
It's not at all 'easy' , it' just a different proposition coming in to a class you're a professional at with many years experience and racing against younger sailors who you're similar in stature to and who have most only had one or two years experience in the boat. There probably a handful of adults with lots of experience and being the right size (John, Jon, Steve and Ben Elvin (yourself?)). 

Compare that to the 200s which Maria won. Next best female helm was in 40th. Most the top sailors are blokes, a lot of which have been top laser, 29er and 420 sailors in the past, and are now several more years experienced.

Possibly Ellie Cumpsty at the Solo nationals is a more similar comparison... had she not got 3 OCS.  

As someone who switches between rigs a bit (because I'm 76kg and short) I find the standard in both classes is comparable, at least down here in Oz which is hardly a standard rig backwater. Many years ago, when I realised I was too short to sail a big rig competitively, I was told to go sail Radials. When I replied "but I want to sail where the competition is" I was told that the level in Radials (even then, before they were Olympic) was generally comparable to that in the big rigs. The guys who told me that have been 1st and 3rd in the open standard worlds, Olympic bronze medallist in the standard at the Olympics, and 1st in the Radial worlds, so they had a fair idea.

I get the fact that standard rig sailors are older and more experienced, but if years of experience is the critical factor then wouldn't it mean (insert tongue in cheek here) that the Solos and RC yachts were the most competitive of classes, and the 200 pretty low on the list?  As another example, my other main class features loads of experience with an average age of around 40-50 and lots of former Olympic team members with world title trophies from about 8 other classes, but despite that I don't feel it's any more competitive than the huge fleet of hard-training young Squaddies you find in Radials.









Edited by Chris 249 - 18 Oct 18 at 1:15am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 18 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

More revealing is the 2016 GP Worlds held in Barbados. Out of 105 entries only 13 were non UK/Ireland boats. The best finish  was 28th from a Barbadian boat and, apart from the UK, Ireland, and Barbados SA boats the only others were 3 Aus boats and a single Canadian entry.

And why does any of that worry the rest of us?
A championship with over 100 entries is still a great event. It still takes a bit of talent to win it. A lot of classes would do well to respect that.

Oh, it certainly takes talent, training and skill to win. However, arguably a contest that's pretty much between two sailing nations is different to a contest between 8 to 20 nations, as in other classes.

The same applies to some of the classes I sail. I love the Tasar, but it's doesn't have the same sort of true world championship as you get in Lasers, for example. It's not a matter of denigrating the Tasar or GP14 class, but a matter of respecting the fact that other classes have greater international spread and therefore their worlds are arguably of a different status.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 18 at 11:13pm
I believe the GGP14 is a special case. I believe they contrived to get International status as a World Sailing Classic Class:
World Sailing Classic Class status is available to existing World Sailing classes of historical importance that have shown exceptional significance in sailing through competition or equipment development, and still maintain active international racing.

This meant they didn't have to demonstrate as wide international distribution as the main International classes.
The impression I got was that the status was worked up for the 18s, but in the event they didn't want to play.

Edited by JimC - 17 Oct 18 at 11:15pm
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 18 at 6:50am
Originally posted by RS400atC

And why does any of that worry the rest of us?
A championship with over 100 entries is still a great event. It still takes a bit of talent to win it. A lot of classes would do well to respect that.

Absolutely.

What other traditional adult class has achieved 100+ boats at a Championship?
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 18 at 7:28am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by RS400atC

And why does any of that worry the rest of us?
A championship with over 100 entries is still a great event. It still takes a bit of talent to win it. A lot of classes would do well to respect that.

Absolutely.

What other traditional adult class has achieved 100+ boats at a Championship?

According to the results the Fireball had 101 at Carnac this year.
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 18 at 7:47am
Originally posted by Paramedic


Originally posted by RS400atC

And why does any of that worry the rest of us?
A championship with over 100 entries is still a great event. It still takes a bit of talent to win it. A lot of classes would do well to respect that.

Absolutely.
What other traditional adult class has achieved 100+ boats at a Championship?


Finns had 352 at El Balis this year (follow that with the sealions.... )
Strictly speaking, that was the World masters, but the Worlds (Gold Cup) at Aarhus was restricted to 100, and filled it.

Edited by Bootscooter - 18 Oct 18 at 7:49am
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 18 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by bustinben

You seem to be suggesting that it's easy
It's not at all 'easy' , it' just a different proposition coming in to a class you're a professional at with many years experience and racing against younger sailors who you're similar in stature to and who have most only had one or two years experience in the boat. 
As someone who switches between rigs a bit (because I'm 76kg and short) I find the standard in both classes is comparable...

I get the fact that standard rig sailors are older and more experienced, but if years of experience is the critical factor then wouldn't it mean (insert tongue in cheek here) that the Solos and RC yachts were the most competitive of classes, and the 200 pretty low on the list?  As another example, my other main class features loads of experience with an average age of around 40-50 and lots of former Olympic team members with world title trophies from about 8 other classes, but despite that I don't feel it's any more competitive than the huge fleet of hard-training young Squaddies you find in Radials.

Firstly, I'm certainly not saying the radial is an easy fleet.

The main gist of my point was not the fleet, but where the sailors are coming from.  

  • The radial girls are professional sailors, so you'd expect them to do well against amateurs. 
  • Unlike a lot of pro's who do amateur nationals the radial girls are doing it in the boat they sail day in, day out. I've raced plenty of pro's in 'my' class and can usually compete, however, if I raced in their chosen class I know I'd get blown away. 
So regardless of the specifics of the radial fleet, there's a couple of points which makes the radial girls performances less remarkable. Not that they're not good, there's not many sports where elite females will be beating under-18 males. 

Now, the point about the experience of the radial fleet... Not sure what it was like in period you refer to in Aus, but in the UK the nationals fleet is 80% under 18 (only 5 senior males in the 80 boat fleet). So, yeah, i think the experience and physical capability of 15-18 years old versus 20-40 is going to make difference to the quality. I know it's tongue in cheek, but extending that out to 40-70 year olds is clearly a different demographic again. Just google a few sport science research project of performance against age. 

The UK radial fleet is probably very similar to the 420 or 29er fleets. each hold a generation of talented youth sailors who dedicate a lot of sailing time to their chosen class. They probably get more coaching support than any other fleet. So beyond the top 3 or 4 adult classes they're probably the most competitive in the UK. 
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 18 at 10:11am
Well said Mozzy - I think you've pretty much nailed that one. A while back, I was RO for a Nationals that we could best describe as essentially amateur, despite being one of the recent SMOD classes. A very well known top sailor from the squads was loaned a boat and that was that  - the difference in ability, in fitness and time out on a race course  (this was a 2 person boat, with kite, so we shouldn't just assume that all skills are immediately transferable) was so dramatically apparent as to be an embarrassment for some. It was superb to watch from the Committee Boat but - at the same time, it did highlight the gulf that now exists  between the young, fit 'pro/squad' sailors and the rest.
As to the ageist question, we should be under no allusions. Sailing, as a sport, is great in that it allows you to continue being reasonable competitive and in some two person boats, with a younger, fitter crew up front, you can still do well with an even older hand on the tiller.  Nor is there any way to do a 'like for like' comparison - let's just admit that the passage of time takes it's toll.... or is that a queue for those who will point to examples of older sailors still winning. Of course they still do....but they tend to be exceptions rather than the rule!

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