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Advertising via sail numbers? 55
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 11:47am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by rb_stretch

 
 
If I was Speed Sails I would also be in damage limitation mode.
 


but who is speed sails... it's just a meaningless brand, Banks Sails built, Northampton Sailboats owned, unless I'm mistaken???   

'There's no such thing as bad publicity'... sure is.

If you feel strongly enough that 'they' are taking the piss out of you, your sport and sportsmanship as a whole, then simply boycott the following chandleries and sail providers:

- http://www.sailboats.co.uk
- http://www.speedsails.co.uk
- http://www.purplemarine.com
- http://www.banks.co.uk

The Speed Sails team are also tied into the promotion of Neil Pryde sailing wear.  Give this is a steer clear too... if you feel strongly enough that is.

The brand is the very thing people have in their minds when someone mentions the brand name. As such they can be very intangible, but never meaningless. The business school trend for outsourcing means many brands are never what you might call the whole business, and they have to manage the knock on consequences if there are any. You only have to think of the horse meat scandal going on right now.

So I was simply suggesting that if I owned the brand in question, I would want to either get the facts straight in this debate if they are not or at least make sure we don't associate the brand with something that is a bit of a debacle. Good business sense.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 11:41am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Maybe this winner has a little more backbone and is prepared to say 'b**locks' to the post-event controversy?


That sounds to me as if you are accusing them of being blatant cheats.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 11:38am
Didn't the gentlemen concern feel rather coerced into retiring, bowing to the pressure of said internet witch hunt?  In their own words from the time, they hardly felt they were 'at fault'... to paraphrase, 'it's not like we used them at a Silver Tiller Event'

The runner-up & principal organiser were hardly cock-a-hoop that 'justice prevailed'.

Maybe this winner has a little more backbone and is prepared to say 'b**locks' to the post-event controversy?
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 11:36am
Originally posted by jeffers


How do we know that this was not declared though? Were you on the team taking entries? 

For all a lot of us know it was declared that they were using some development sails. Hell they may even have dispensation from the class to be using these (unlikely given the statement made by Vince Horey).

At the end of the day it is another mess that has left a sour taste in the mouth of people... 

That is why I prefaced my comment by "If interpreted correctly". 

I sincerely hope they did declare, because that would be my preferred outcome.

I added the statement at the end as a bit of encouragement for those that might know to at least keep us to the facts. It seems that one person who does know has already left a rather vague comment that has not helped.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 11:31am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

or the internet witch hunt?

The problem with witch hunts comes if there are no witches and the legal system decides to find them anyway. If there are genuinely such things as witches and they genuinely break the law then perhaps they need to be hunted like any other criminal.

BASIC PRINCIPLES
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty which may be to retire.


The trouble is I'm too much of a moral coward to enter the next SJ event and protest every boat that hoists an obviously incorrect sailnumber or appears to have illegal sails, which on past form might be any boat carrying newish Speed Sails. It would be the right thing to do though, because the Basic principle in the RRS also puts a duty on sailors to enforce the rules.

Last time round the gentlemen concerned examined their consciences when the situation became clear and elected to retire, which was the sporting thing to do, and we should continue to applaud them for having done so.

Edited by JimC - 12 Feb 13 at 11:35am
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 11:08am
Originally posted by jeffers

 

At the end of the day it is another mess that has left a sour taste in the mouth of people... 

which bit?  the technical infraction or the internet witch hunt?  
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 11:05am
Originally posted by rb_stretch

If interpreted correctly, it would be the statement of defiance that does it for me.
 
I think they should just fess up, state lesson learned and we won't do it again. Leave the result to stand and make it abundantly clear in future SIs that out of class boats need to declare so beforehand to the RO for any potential penalty.
 
If I was Speed Sails I would also be in damage limitation mode.
 
All assuming we have the right facts of course, which I'm sure we would all be very happy to be corrected on.

How do we know that this was not declared though? Were you on the team taking entries? 

For all a lot of us know it was declared that they were using some development sails. Hell they may even have dispensation from the class to be using these (unlikely given the statement made by Vince Horey).

At the end of the day it is another mess that has left a sour taste in the mouth of people... 
Paul
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 10:23am
Originally posted by rb_stretch

 
 
If I was Speed Sails I would also be in damage limitation mode.
 


but who is speed sails... it's just a meaningless brand, Banks Sails built, Northampton Sailboats owned, unless I'm mistaken???   

'There's no such thing as bad publicity'... sure is.

If you feel strongly enough that 'they' are taking the piss out of you, your sport and sportsmanship as a whole, then simply boycott the following chandleries and sail providers:

- http://www.sailboats.co.uk
- http://www.speedsails.co.uk
- http://www.purplemarine.com
- http://www.banks.co.uk

The Speed Sails team are also tied into the promotion of Neil Pryde sailing wear.  Give this is a steer clear too... if you feel strongly enough that is.

edit: I have included Banks Sails as they have been linked to the Speed Sails brand earlier in this thread.  If Banks are not the contract sailmaker for Speeds, then I am happy stand corrected and will delete the Banks reference from the this post Jimbo, 13/02/2013

Further edit:  I have received confirmation via email that Banks Sails are the contract sailmaker for Speed Sails; however Speed Sails stipulate the specification of their products and are ultimately responsible for the marketing and product placement of their products.  At no point should we assume that Banks Sails are endorsing the use of illegal sails, they simply produce to the specification of an in-industry (B2B) customer.  Jimbo 13/02/2013



Edited by pondmonkey - 13 Feb 13 at 10:31am
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 10:06am
If interpreted correctly, it would be the statement of defiance that does it for me.
 
I think they should just fess up, state lesson learned and we won't do it again. Leave the result to stand and make it abundantly clear in future SIs that out of class boats need to declare so beforehand to the RO for any potential penalty.
 
If I was Speed Sails I would also be in damage limitation mode.
 
All assuming we have the right facts of course, which I'm sure we would all be very happy to be corrected on.
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boatshed View Drop Down
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 13 at 9:56am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by r2d2

I understood the Voltaire quote to be both an admission of guilt and a statement of defiance. ie they knew what they were doing, thought it was OK to test the sails, wern't sorry and expect the result to stand, which it will wont it ?


I do hope your interpretation is wrong, because if you are correct you are describing a particularly unpleasant piece of poor sportsmanship.


I would think it is highly unlikely that the current Fireball world champion was not aware of the Fireball class rules.   Especially, as Vince Horey has stated, these Tape Drive sails have been discussed by the Fireball fleet for some years.

 
Steve
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