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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: V Twin
    Posted: 23 May 12 at 10:33am
social enterprise... a philanthropic gesture to bring the essence of 'kewell' to the world of yellow wellies.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 10:12am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

It's on our books, under product R&D, quite legitimately and already audited and signed off, we're a marine business after all.
 
Interesting ...
 
Previous post ...
 
Originally posted by G.R.F.

... although I'm not doing this for any commercial ends, ....
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 10:10am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

 

But the fundamental thing at issue here remains the 'culture' of dinghyists for clinging on to their 'minimum weight'.



if this is a pointed reference to the Farr 3.7 and its emerging rule set, I'd take it all with a pinch of salt.  

There'll be what, 5-10 of them over the next few years at the most at any one event.  The chances are they will have to extract their 'class results' from various handicap events that you're unlikely to bother travelling to anyway.  So if you really want one, but want to race with the kite AND build it down to 20-odd kilos, go knock yourself out.  I reckon most folks buying-in to it are doing it for the chance to sail a boat they've built specifically for them, not because they're expecting good fleet racing anyway.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 9:58am
There's a lot to talk about and in some instances rebut in that post and a lot of interesting and accurate facts that I can't dispute.

But the fundamental thing at issue here remains the 'culture' of dinghyists for clinging on to their 'minimum weight'.

I take the point about rig tolerances on boards, but point out that point loading from mast foot pressure and heel dents are different yet still stress issues that had to be dealt with. There was a proto M1 built by SP systems with aluminium honeycomb, would easily take a rig, that was 1980, it was close to 300 ltrs and weighed sub 18kgs. The other boards you referred to used heat presses to apply ABS protection to epoxy I was looking at them on the beach last night some are thirty years old and still look a lot fresher than this Laser EPS I've just acquired.

The discussion re rigs, other than the fine example set by the C2 rig for the byte, I've not seen anything where a company matches their *mast to a sail, although I accept there are myriad factors that dinghyists can apply to screw up any luff curve and the chances of them setting an appropriate bend curve to match that of a sail are pretty remote, I also accept it's the way things are done, however it doesn't mean it's necessarily right and correct to overcomplicate things just for 'effect' which I fear does go on a lot.

* I accept I could be wrong here my experience is still very limited and even now I might be pleasantly surprised this afternoon with my EPS set up. On the other hand my experience with the RS100 shows just how horrendously wrong they can get stuff even when they set out to achieve what we've just talked about.


Edited by G.R.F. - 23 May 12 at 10:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 9:46am
One of things I noticed between the prototype RS100 and the finished product was the massive reduction in hull weight.  Did it make it a nicer boat?  Well maybe it planed slightly earlier, but the kite was bigger by then so no real way to tell this.  But for handling around the shore, certainly not.  Leave an RS100 unattended to take your trolley up the beach, even for a second or two, and it will be capsized when you return, even in the lightest of winds and softest of launch spots.  It's not a deal breaker, but it's a bit of a pain in the arse.

Given one of Graeme's major criteria for improvement was shore-handling, I can't really see why such a light platform is so high up the wish list.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 9:41am
Having said all that, I was surprised to see how thick some parts of very nice boats like the RS 200 were*. A Tasar is bigger, considerably lighter and can last very well and is much lighter around areas like the thwarts. And I can't believe that a Heron needs thwarts that are about 4 times as thick as the deck of boats that do Fastnets and Hobarts. 

In return for having lighter boats you may have to have a different attitude to handling them in terms of things like not letting the hull touch shingles, but then again that becomes easier with a lighter boat. And personally I can't see why anyone would put a racing boat on the ground because the chances of scratching are high no matter how good the construction, aren't they?

But it's a far step from saying that slightly lighter boats can be popular, to saying that we need to dump weight restrictions and old classes.

And IMHO RS are outstanding boatbuilders, let me make that clear. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 9:33am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

 
That was forty years ago, things have moved on apace since then, there have been all manner of composite constructions, ally honey comb, nomex honeycomb, styrofoam core, epoxy sandwich over styrofoam, abs over epoxy over styro foam, there are still 4 mtr craft that are thirty years old weigh under 18 kilos and quite capable of being run up the beach, it's just a sad fact that your/our market will never support the volume that would justify the production expense to produce what we're looking for.

Then again unless there is a culture, that demands it, why bother? All the time everyone is perfectly happy to think 40 kgs is light, then it's game on for these pathetic 'garage' construction systems to continue. 

Grumpf, I have to agree about the need to make the sport user-friendly, but that's not going to achieved by burning all the old boats and forcing people into 16k GBP/$25,000 US or AUS carbon lightweights.

The lightest dinghies around (for their size) are the Moths, the 12 Foot Skiffs and the NZ R Class. They are lighter for size than boards and extremely expensive because there is no minimum weight (apart from the 12s which are about 45kg and heavily loaded). The 12 Foot Skiff bare hull costs over $20k AUS/US, which is thousands more than the 16' 505 hull, and 505s are hardly a low tech boat for poor people. It's fantasy to say that dropping minimum weights would not make boats extremely expensive - a 20,000 US dollar bare hull is not exactly cheap for a 12 foot boat!

If the "4 mtr craft that are thirty years old weigh under 18 kilos and quite capable of being run up the beach" are boards, as I suspect they are, then they are a totally different kettle of fish. Boards are inherently smaller and more lightly loaded and that lets them work despite construction that is inferior in many ways.... that's not better construction, it's basic physics.

My longboard fleet includes two customs built by Rick Naish and Harold Iggy for Robby; the bronze-medal winning Lechner from Barcelona, and two German built Mistrals. They are top class examples of board construction, and yet not one of them could take the loads imposed by a boat's rigging. They are not better than boats!

You can't ignore the factor of size and squaring rules. Take the IMCO and its dimensions of 3720 x 630 x approx 200, 235 L and 15kg. Compare it to the Laser, 4200 x1390 x approx 320, 840l volume (very, very roughly) and 57kg.... turns out that the Laser is about only 7% heavier for its size despite being a couple of decades older, and more durable in use.

You can't compare boards to boats any more than you can compare the weight of a car to the weight of a motorbike. A Pro Stock drag bike has a similar wheelbase (counting bars) to a Formula 1 car but only weighs 40% as much - does that mean that F1 technology is crud? No, it just means that one thing is inherently skinnier and lower and therefore weighs less.

I can't find any reason to say that boats are inferior in terms of things like rig technology. The fact that you are complaining about mast bend v luff curve is, to be blunt, ridiculous, because boat sailors often spend many hours working on those factors on and off the water, whereas boardsailors just tend to buy what they are told and crank it to the recommended settings no matter what the conditions. FWIW I reckon board rigs have gone backwards in terms of user-friendliness and wind range in some ways over the decades - they are certainly very heavy compared to what they could be.

Funny thing, y'know....when I was looking up the length of drag racing motorbikes I noticed how tight the rules are - in many ways, much tighter and more restrictive than in many sailing classes. Some sailors keep complaining that sailors have restrictions against development, but I have yet to find a sport with equipment of comparable cost that has such an excellent range of restrictions, from almost unlimited classes to very tight ones. And guess which end of the scale actually gets the sailors....


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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 9:24am
It's on our books, under product R&D, quite legitimately and already audited and signed off, we're a marine business after all.

I wouldn't mind betting that technically pretty much every boat sold last year was somebodies tax loss, no-one appears to be making huge profits at the moment.

The EPS on the other hand is a personal acquisition and paid for from my private account and would have been a little secret had the bread knife not arisen early on Sunday morning and caught me red handed hitching up the trailer, she finding out is worse than dealing with the taxman.

The problem was further exacerbated by my true and trusty club mates explaining to her 'everyone' knew i was getting it, when she turned up for galley duty on Sunday explaining her discovery, so in area of personal fiscal sh*tstorms, the Taxman pales into insignificance against what bread knife retribution will now be visited upon me.


Edited by G.R.F. - 23 May 12 at 9:35am
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 9:23am
I would imagine that a watersports marketing and distribution company could easily claim R&D Relief for a new sailing-related innovation and I'd happily testify this is genuine R&D and innovative, it certainly nothing like what we've seen in market to date.


Obviously the V-Twin would remain a depreciating asset on the asset register, rather than 'Graeme's Toy' and any racing in it to date could be seen as veritable product testing and not subject to Benefit In Kind like say a company car.

And for the record, no, all my own sailing expenditure is and always has been post-income tax funded, fully VAT paid where applicable and I've never considered a contra-sponsor arrangement.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 9:09am
oh lord please remind me to keep my big etc etc
Now they have a sniff, bloudhounds spring to mind.
Can you write the V TWIN down as a tax loss?
Gordon
Lossc
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