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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Favourite Photos
    Posted: 24 Jul 06 at 9:55am

The problem with the Laser, and one of the ways it differs from the Contender, is the way its lines taper towards the stern. This is something Bethwaite points to as the reason a Laser goes unstable at high speed. So adding rig and a trapeze to a Laser won't get you a baby Contender, a boat which has good high speed stability. On the other hand, the Laser's lines make it nice to sail in lighter winds (I know some will jeer at that), when it is pretty responsive and gives good feel on the helm sailing to windward.

Bethwaite avoided the high-speed instability when designing the Laser 2 (= L & V3000) by having a wider waterline at the transom, and indeed these boats are more stable on the plane and in general. The downside is that like most 'modern' planing hulls with a lot of wetted area they're a bit sticky in light airs. Sure, Bethwaite points to the 'fourth mode' wherein you get the weight right forward and heel the boat to lift the flat sections out of the water, but that's only really sensible in a real drifter; in a F.2-3 where wave drag starts to kick in, heeling brings penalties, so you remain Wayfarer fodder like we were yesterday!
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Matt Jackson View Drop Down
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Posts: 962 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 06 at 11:31am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Bethwaite avoided the high-speed instability when designing the Laser 2 (= L & V3000) by having a wider waterline at the transom...

I guess that explains why whenever I see a LII with it's cover on at my club I always do a double-take to check someone hasn't snuck in a Contender without me noticing. The mast rake usually gives it away though . I tried single handering(?) a LII once and it wasn't a bit like a Contender.
Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36
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tickel View Drop Down
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Posts: 408 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 06 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

The problem with the Laser, and one of the ways it differs from the Contender, is the way its lines taper towards the stern. This is something Bethwaite points to as the reason a Laser goes unstable at high speed. So adding rig and a trapeze to a Laser won't get you a baby Contender, a boat which has good high speed stability. On the other hand, the Laser's lines make it nice to sail in lighter winds (I know some will jeer at that), when it is pretty responsive and gives good feel on the helm sailing to windward.


Bethwaite avoided the high-speed instability when designing the Laser 2 (= L & V3000) by having a wider waterline at the transom, and indeed these boats are more stable on the plane and in general. The downside is that like most 'modern' planing hulls with a lot of wetted area they're a bit sticky in light airs. Sure, Bethwaite points to the 'fourth mode' wherein you get the weight right forward and heel the boat to lift the flat sections out of the water, but that's only really sensible in a real drifter; in a F.2-3 where wave drag starts to kick in, heeling brings penalties, so you remain Wayfarer fodder like we were yesterday!
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tickel View Drop Down
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Posts: 408 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 06 at 10:31pm
That is all so true and is the reason we found our L 2 such a disapointment. If you look at a Lightning 368, which has a very wide transom for its length, and a very stable centre section, which enables it to cope with the same sail area as a full rig laser, perhaps an even bigger rig with a trapeze would work.....no I'm talking rubbish again I'll go to bed.
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I luv Wight View Drop Down
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Posts: 628 		Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 06 at 11:12pm
But a cherub with narrow transom, and chines very much tapering in like this P7 ( multi nationals winner )


is very stable at speed ( and only falls over when going slow or round the corners). The tapering in also helps reduce wetted surface in light stuff, without having to sit on the foredeck.
but you do still have to sit fwds ( here's two P7s in light winds)
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 06 at 11:41pm

That's only a narrow transom for a Cherub. I think you'll find that the Laser 2 has a similar taper to the P7 Cherub - it's not a question of zero taper. But the Laser '1'  is still more pronounced.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but even that Cherub would be sluggish in light airs on handicap compared to a good Wayfarer. All boat design is a compromise - you can't have it all, just choose the conditions you want to go fast in and hope they occur most often.
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tickel View Drop Down
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Posts: 408 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 06 at 8:39am
Is the point about Cherubs that the sail area and minimal weight enables them to cope in light winds whilst the youth enthusiasim and athleticism of the crews can cope with a blow. Someone will tell me now that the nationals winning crew had a combined age of 146 and wooden legs!
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andy_cherub View Drop Down
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Posts: 768 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andy_cherub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 06 at 10:23am

To the last two comments - to be honest ive neva been beaten by a wayfarer on PY, and even my self and my crew who are overweight at the mo still did fairly well last race despite there being no wind at all!! True - in the light stuff a merlin is the way of life, but as soon as a cherub is planning - OH BOY!

Big rigs help lardys - but the new rules are easier to sail than the 97 rules:

a

 
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-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff
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andy_cherub View Drop Down
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Posts: 768 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andy_cherub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 06 at 10:25am
Whoops - sorry, didnt mean the pictures to be so huge!!
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
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Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 06 at 10:50am
Originally posted by andy_cherub

To the last two comments - to be honest ive neva been beaten by a wayfarer on PY

Then either your PY is wrong or you're not meeting the right Wayfarers

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