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What does mast rake do?

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    Posted: 10 May 07 at 8:15am

Increasing mast rake opens the slot on most boats as the head of the jib moves aft relative to the rest of the sail. This opens the leech of the jib so the slot has now been opened.

No kicker in dinghys can work. Has to be really windy, and then allows power on/power off to only be a small amount of mainsheet.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 7:40am

Originally posted by redback

As for letting the kicker off when its windy - it doesn't work.  More wind, more kicker.

Here's a funny thing. There is a keelboat class where 50% of helms are convinced that the way to handle the main upwind is to centre the traveller and ease main and kicker. The other 50% pull on maximum sheet and kicker and play the traveller. Results suggests both techniques are equally fast if done well.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 7:37am

Originally posted by Garry

opens the slot (depowering) and move the Centre of effort aft. You can then lift the centreboard slightly moving the centre of lateral resistance aft.

It's not obvious why increasing rake would open the slot, or why that would result in depowering. If your boat allows it, try sailing with a very closed slot. More power? I suspect not.

And allowing the centreboard to be lifted, fine except that I can think of classes that, as the breeze builds, will start to rake the rig long before they'd consider raising the board.

I'm not disputing that rake works but the explanations you commonly read don't really bear examination.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 07 at 10:42pm

My experience is that mast rake makes a boat go better upwind and its not just the opening of the leech of the jib that does it.  Too much mast rake really throws away power and for this reason we always rake the mast back on the 4000 by one click on the shrouds when conditions are at all difficult, this corresponds to bringing the mast tip about 80mm closer to the transom.  Why such a small change makes such a huge difference is a mystery.

As for letting the kicker off when its windy - it doesn't work.  More wind, more kicker.  The kicker makes the rig a lot less inclined to snatch in the gusts and the power more easy to modulate.  If the boat is difficult to handle try more kicker.  If you look at the more modern roachy type of rigs you'll find you can sail with the top of the sail absolutely flat when you apply lots of kicker.  That's exactly what you want in strong winds, not a full ragging mainsail causing masses of aerodynamic drag.

Here's something else to think about.  I have found that if I power up the rig (tighter lowers, less rake and use the mainsheet for leech tension) I can get the crew out on the wire at quite low windspeeds and the boat goes faster for it, but it has very poor gust response.  By which I mean it doesn't accelerate and it is often faster overal to sacrifice a bit of power and get the acceleration.  I can only liken it to driving a car slowly in 5th gear.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 07 at 5:00pm

Originally posted by dopamine

Very clear summary Gary, thanks. As a sailing newbie I always find these matters very difficult to take in, there always seems to be some contradictory factor to any setting!  I've read the Lawrie Smith book and think I'm beginning to absorb some of it.

If you get the channce go to one of Adam Bower's talks on rig tuning, he puts all this in a simple and effective way.

Garry

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 07 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Not really, because some boats can adjust mast bend and rake independently but still increase rake upwind as the breeze builds. I've never read a convincing account of why increased rake depowers the rig but it clearly does.

Increasing rake opens the slot (depowering) and move the Centre of effort aft. You can then lift the centreboard slightly moving the centre of lateral resistance aft.

Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Quote WildWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 07 at 4:14pm

I've always found the genal rule 'if it looks nice then it's fast' works with sail trimming.  For example an over sheeted sail with too much kicker looks terrible and isn't quick. Generally speaking it's best to keep looking at your sails and trying to get them sitting the best you can, unless you have gone to the lengths of working out exactly what settings you need for what wind strength.Mast rake and mast bend are obviously quite different things, mast bend affecting how full the main sail is, while mast rake alters the centre of effort of the rig and has a fundamental affect on the balance and handling of the boat, again generally speaking I think more rake will improve upwind performance, and less rake improves down wind speed.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 07 at 3:13pm

Originally posted by Noah

As I understand it, the raking back in stronger winds helps to induce bend in the mast because the shroud / spreader / chainplate etc angles change.

Not really, because some boats can adjust mast bend and rake independently but still increase rake upwind as the breeze builds. I've never read a convincing account of why increased rake depowers the rig but it clearly does.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 07 at 10:47am
As I understand it, the raking back in stronger winds helps to induce bend in the mast because the shroud / spreader / chainplate etc angles change. This might help to explain why - about a zillion years ago - sailing a GP with my Dad (we weighted about 19st all up) we could not depower the thing - no spreaders!.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dopamine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 07 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Garry

Sorry I disagree Alex (unless by straight you mean more upright) in light winds you want flatter open sails which means some bend, no kicker and no cunningham. As the wind picks up you want a straighter mast and wind on the kicker to get the leech working and then as you become over-powered you need to start bending it again, loads of kicker and cunningham.  Rake is different you want the mast more upright in light winds and then rake back as the wind increases.  However, if your rake is adjustable on the water then you rake backwards for upwind and forwards downwind.  If you don't have the ability to change it on the water then you need to set up rake to get the correct compromise between upwind and down for the wind strength.  However, don't rake too much in light winds as it opens the slot between jib and main losing power.

Your class association should be able to give you some general advice.  read Lawrie Smith's tuning your dinghy book, a bit dated now but still a good source of basic general information.

That's a pretty basic summary there are bound to be specific exceptions.

Very clear summary Gary, thanks. As a sailing newbie I always find these matters very difficult to take in, there always seems to be some contradictory factor to any setting!  I've read the Lawrie Smith book and think I'm beginning to absorb some of it.
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