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Clubs still allowing sailing

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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Clubs still allowing sailing
    Posted: 28 Apr 20 at 10:27am
One thing's for sure regarding facts and figures, many of the current batch of politicians will spin, twist, nudge, obfuscate and outright lie in order to suit their particular agenda. To think that the key players have seen the "light of truth" and had some sort of epiphany in these difficult times is naivety bordering on stupidity. We all need to stay safe primarily and keep a sharp eye on the political slight of hand, challenging them hard on every issue.

Personally I have a Wife (previously very senior clinical) and Daughter (senior admin) who currently work for NHS. I have a Father, Mother and Father in Law all over 87 yrs and I would be grateful if people refrained from careless neglect of the lock-down rules.
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 20 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Cirrus

Some speculation about the possible cause of excess deaths seemingly is an attempt to avoid the real issue.   Covid-19 is obviously dangerous, kills widely and very very obviously is the key factor here.  
Speculation about excess deaths is not an attempt to cover the real issue at all.

It's plainly obvious that huge numbers are dying from covid. No one is disputing that. And it's plainly obvious that thousands have died before their time, because we are seeing excess deaths. I'ts also pretty obvious that the NHS could have been overwhelmed if we didn't enter lock-down, and still could be if we exit it too early. 

My point is we don't have to make assumptions about the excess deaths, because the data is there. And to assume covid is behind all excess deaths and there are no other issues is a bit simplistic. There will be indirect deaths, and we need to limit these as well.  

So this isn't really a discussion about lockdown measures (aimed at reducing the spread of the virus to ensure capacity). It's more about the policy of cancelling non-essential care, and care in the community. And early discharge. Plus the fear of being treated alongside covid patients. There is a real cost to these policies, and the excess deaths due to non-covid causes is an indication that people are paying with their lives. 

When A&E and wards are empty, why are people not getting the help they need?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/two-new-waves-deaths-break-nhs-new-analysis-warns/

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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 20 at 9:10am
Southern hemisphere just going into flu season, Northern hemisphere will at least know what to expect later this year, will give government a chance to plan.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 20 at 8:30am
Some speculation about the possible cause of excess deaths seemingly is an attempt to avoid the real issue.   Covid-19 is obviously dangerous, kills widely and very very obviously is the key factor here.  There will be and is undercounting of Covid-19 related deaths just as conversally is a proportion of fatalities where it was just one of a number of factors involved.  However do not be persuaded that without a mostly effective shutdown in place now, and all its implications anything other a total disaster would have resulted - both in terms of deaths and an associated economic wipe-out.  Things are bad enough anyway and will be for some time whatever policies were applied or could be applied now.  We must therefore be very careful what we wish for in the next few weeks and months.  Continuing limitations are not likely to be popular, as if they would ever have been, but this is not a period where much 'choice' exists.  Choice is really a luxury of more normal times.  Open up the economy and social interaction too quickly and the result could kill off many tens of thousands more than is still going to happen anyway from here on in as well as snuff out any hoped for economic benefits or recovery to boot.   Pandemics of this type do not simply disappear on a political or economic timetable.  This period will of course end or become normalised as a much lower level of insidence than currently but expectations have to be realistic on an indivudual, national and world basis in the coming months. 

I'd like to be sailing as well, and expect some limited liberalisation of current restictions in due course that may allow at least some sailing access later this year but 'back to normal'  ? - no time soon.

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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 20 at 6:59pm
Thanks again Nicola.

The details you provided were very interesting but I still say that the, very sad death toll of 21,092 (BBC 1 Hour ago) is not the actual death toll from Covid 19, in fact no where near it. That was my original point.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 20 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Nonetheless if 10k a week usually die and now 18k are, it is reasonable to assume the majority of the extra 8k are dieing of Covid19. That’s about 15 Grenfell Towers worth of Covid victims every day, whilst in lockdown.
Not really. 

Because the ONS record all this, so there is no need to assume. 

There were 18,516 deaths. This is 7,996 more deaths than the five-year average of 10,520. The number of death registrations involving the coronavirus (COVID-19) increased to 6,213. So there are at least 1,783 deaths above the 5 year average not linked to covid. 

Now not all, but an not insignificant amount of the 6,213 would have died of something else anyway that week. We know 91%  have underlying health conditions. We'll never know what would have killed them otherwise. But there are clues. Ischaemic heart disease was down on the 5 year average for deaths, as was chronic lower respiratory  disease. These were also two of the most linked underlying health conditions. Suggesting that instead of those conditions, Covid is killing them. 

This means, that extra deaths not linked to covid is probably also up to account for the people who would have died anyway, who instead died with covid.  But it would be hard to say exactly how many, as we don't know how many people dying of covid would have died that week of those other diseases anyway. 

If we get this thing under control, then you would expect to see a big dip in the death rate. The sooner the dip and the more sudden the dip is reflective that the people who died would have died within months under more normal circumstances. 

Now, I'm not sure what is causing the extra deaths. I mean, we can see what is the direct causes are, because they are recorded. However, what will be harder to determine is what caused those other causes of death to spike at the same time as covid (as we know those deaths were unrelated). My point earlier about community care and hospital wards cleared to make way for covid patients could be reasons. Maybe if you've only got a few months left anyway then facing it in isolation is enough to make you let go too?

What is fantastic news is that the NHS isn't being overwhelmed. The biggest challenges it faces are tests to get fit worker with the sniffles back in work and to get more PPE. 

The question now is, we cleared out the hospitals, cancelled none emergency care and told people to stay away to ensure we had capacity of the virus. This could be a cause for the extra deaths not related to covid. 

In the end, the debate will be whether more people died because they were deprived care or were too afraid to seeks care when there was in fact capacity than would have died if the NHS had been overwhelmed and those same people couldn't get care because the capacity wasn't there?

It's a tragic situation. 

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NicolaJayne View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NicolaJayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 20 at 6:31pm
used to be a Health professional , health issues for me meant I'm not in practice / registered any more.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 20 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Some have been mentioning figures. One things for sure, the numbers being mentioned media are hopelessly inaccurate........Nobody knows who's had it who's got it and who's died of it

I know we are all becoming armchair analysts, but I think we can be reasonably sure of how many people have died with COVID-19.

Please explain, I may have missed your point.

Many people in care homes with it were not counted, some are being included now. Many have died in the community, again not counted.

Not usually a betting man but I'd bet the true figures are never known........of course we'll never know one way or the other.

 


you have missed the point  

1.  the weekly ONS  figures do include community deaths ( in care homes)  where  Covid-19 is mentioned on the death certificate 

2.  there is a difference between dying OF something and dying with Something 

to die  OF Covid-19   you;d be looking at the people who have the  Covid related  can't ventilate  syndrome  and the associated  viral  sepsis 

to  split  the Of / with  thing 

consider  type I diabetes 

 you can die 'of'  it - you get DKA  and  you die because of the  acidotic  state 

you can die with it - say you are driving along in your car  have a hypo  and  crash into a  bridge parapet  ...  if you  weren't diabeitic you probably wouldn;t have had the crash  - so being diabetic  contributed  to it  but you died of the massive internal injuries from piling into  concrete parapet at 70 mph 

so how does this  translate  to Covid-19 

 consider that to get a care home bed you have to be pretty frail ,  especially a nursing home bed - generally  these individuals  especially in 'general' beds rather than  Mental health / dementia beds have a life expectency  on admission of months to  a few years...   

 their physiological reserve is much diminished  i.e it  doesn't take much to tip them from their  usual day to day level to being profoundly and life threateningly ill 
 






Thanks for that Nicola.
 Professional I take it?











+1 with the thanks , Nicola 
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 20 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Some have been mentioning figures. One things for sure, the numbers being mentioned media are hopelessly inaccurate........Nobody knows who's had it who's got it and who's died of it

I know we are all becoming armchair analysts, but I think we can be reasonably sure of how many people have died with COVID-19.

Please explain, I may have missed your point.

Many people in care homes with it were not counted, some are being included now. Many have died in the community, again not counted.

Not usually a betting man but I'd bet the true figures are never known........of course we'll never know one way or the other.

 


you have missed the point  

1.  the weekly ONS  figures do include community deaths ( in care homes)  where  Covid-19 is mentioned on the death certificate 

2.  there is a difference between dying OF something and dying with Something 

to die  OF Covid-19   you;d be looking at the people who have the  Covid related  can't ventilate  syndrome  and the associated  viral  sepsis 

to  split  the Of / with  thing 

consider  type I diabetes 

 you can die 'of'  it - you get DKA  and  you die because of the  acidotic  state 

you can die with it - say you are driving along in your car  have a hypo  and  crash into a  bridge parapet  ...  if you  weren't diabeitic you probably wouldn;t have had the crash  - so being diabetic  contributed  to it  but you died of the massive internal injuries from piling into  concrete parapet at 70 mph 

so how does this  translate  to Covid-19 

 consider that to get a care home bed you have to be pretty frail ,  especially a nursing home bed - generally  these individuals  especially in 'general' beds rather than  Mental health / dementia beds have a life expectency  on admission of months to  a few years...   

 their physiological reserve is much diminished  i.e it  doesn't take much to tip them from their  usual day to day level to being profoundly and life threateningly ill 
 






Thanks for that Nicola.
 Professional I take it?









Edited by Sussex Lad - 27 Apr 20 at 5:11pm
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 20 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by 423zero

They said the Spanish flu had died out after its first wave was interrupted by the summer, then came back in the autumn, far worse.

You'd like to think we've come on a bit in 100 years, but I dont disagree that come this winter we will find ourselves subject to similar restrictions. If its the right thing to do, you wont find me complaining :)
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