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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 12:05pm
Yes.... it looks as if the USA is out, for its restrictions on Cuban pros if nothing else. The home of the Olympics out; all the Commonwealth countries out; China is arguably out because of the way they force Taiwanese to compete under another flag. And that's from a few seconds of research.

It looks as if Ireland or Montenegro or somewhere will be hosting about 144 world titles each year.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 11:51am
It would be an interesting exercise to work out every nation that has ever blocked athlete participation in an event for political reasons, and then see how many are left...
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 11:47am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249

...South Africa withdrew from the Commonwealth in 1961 after its people voted ...

Well, some of its people anyway. Don't forget that a lot of them didn't have a vote in those days.

Very true, tragically (although if my wife's great uncle John X Merriman had been successful at the Union Conference, most of them would have;  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Qualified_Franchise ).  And a lot of the best athletes were not allowed to go overseas, but apparently ISAF should have welcomed teams selected on racial grounds rather than ban them.






Edited by Chris 249 - 27 Jan 16 at 11:58am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Chris 249

...South Africa withdrew from the Commonwealth in 1961 after its people voted ...

Well, some of its people anyway. Don't forget that a lot of them didn't have a vote in those days.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 16 at 9:26am
The Gleneagles Agreement was signed in June '77; the UN International Convention against Apartheid in Sports was adopted in December 1985.  Therefore for eight years South Africans were regularly denied the chance to sail in world titles before the UN banned them

South Africa withdrew from the Commonwealth in 1961 after its people voted to become a republic. It was not suspended from the Commonwealth for its racist policies.

http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/becoming-republic-and-withdrawal-commonwealth-1961

\




Edited by Chris 249 - 27 Jan 16 at 9:48am
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gladwell View Drop Down
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Posts: 4 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gladwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 16 at 10:22am
Probably because the sport ban was imposed on South Africa by the Commonwealth Nations. South Africa was also suspended from the Commonwealth for its racial policies.

There is no such ban on Israeli athletes, Malaysia is just a country that will bid for major world championships knowing that their government will not let Israeli sailors inside their borders. And ISAF are silly enough to approve the application and then let themselves get caught napping, when they don't follow up on a situation that had been developing since 2011.

RG
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 10:11am
Originally posted by Richard Gladwell

I see the Israeli Table Tennis team which was being subject to the same Malaysian welcome as the Israeli Sailing Team  - but their world body threatened to impose sanctions on the Malaysians - has elected to pull out of the competition.

Someone has told the Malaysians  that they won't face sanctions as a result - so they have got off the hook again.

The only people who can deal to this issue are the world bodies who are proving to be remarkably spineless.

RG

That's the same world table tennis body that once barred South Africa.  If it was right then why is it wrong now? If it was wrong then, where is the apology to South Africans?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:57am
If sailing wants to be a world sport it has to put up with the world as it is. And here in the west we should remember there are many countries where they see our lifestyles and forms of government more as a dreadful warning than a shining example. We expect them to put up with our appalling behaviour (as they see it) so perhaps we need to put up with their appalling behaviour (as we see it).

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Rupert

Trouble is, politics is always subjective, not objective, so comparing different situations doesn't necessarily work very well.

 

Sure - but since it's subjective why do so many people speak as if ISAF was objectively wrong?

And why do so many who condemn ISAF either go along with similar action taken by their own nation, or fail to start a movement to apologise for those actions?

There does seem to be a lot of "WE were right to stand up for our beliefs, THEY cannot stand up for their beliefs" about this.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:34am
Okay, so not a single Commonwealth nation should have been allowed to hold a single world championship for the 15 years or so that Gleneagles was in action?  What would that have meant for sailing, in the Commonwealth nations and worldwide?  How would it have been for classes that are mainly sailed in the UK, for example?  Would the Ents and GP 14s have had to travel to Ireland just about every year for their worlds?  Would that really help the sport overall?  Would it really have helped fight the apartheid regime to see South Africa dominate the Fireball worlds or something?

Let's just step back in time.  The Commonwealth nations have agreed on Gleneagles.  We as sailors cannot fight that decision.  Would you have been OK if the UK could not hold a single world title for all those years?  I don't think we would have been in Oz.  The Kiwis seemed pretty proud of the fact that they held world titles.  Why is it OK for us (the UK, Oz and NZ) to ban nations but not Malaysia?

If we were all wrong (and it's doubtful) why are we not apologising profusely?  Why can be attack a country that does just what we did, and ignore the fact that we were "guilty" of the same acts?

What is "a collective action"?  The Arab League has taken "collective action" against Israel, so does that mean we all should?  If Cuba and North Korea take "collective action" to ban sailors from all western countries should everyone else follow suit?

"Perhaps women in British Sailing should be obliged to cover up in Muslim countries?"

Do athletes have the right to ignore the laws of the nation the title is being held in?  19year old Aussie, Kiwi or British sailors don't get to drink many places in the USA.  Sailors from the Netherlands don't get to smoke dope in Australia even if it's legal for them at home.  If an apartheid white South African team had gone to a world title in Oz or the UK in the '80s should they have been allowed to treat non-whites just like they did at home?*

So how far does one get to carry one's own laws when one goes to a regatta away from home?  Exactly what set of standards must the host live up to?  

All of these questions seem to be pretty difficult ones, which is why I don't understand the people who say that ISAF's decision was simple - especially when those people seem quite happy when their own nation did much the same thing.



* At least some of them did, and it was sickening to hear them talk of "kaffirs".  Not all South African sailors were like that, and it seems that some of them were in favour of the Gleneagles agreement even if it cost them the chance of doing world titles - they felt that fighting race-based oppression was more important than going for a sail.




Edited by Chris 249 - 22 Jan 16 at 9:56am
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