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Nice new Laser for Christmas

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    Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 11:01pm
Jist because there is no evidence for something doesn't mean it's not true. But Toppers are injection moulded, in one factory and have one sailmaker, spar maker etc. I have no doubt they are more consistently produced than hand Kay up Lasers built in several places with a choice if sails. Likewise, 49er and Musto have higher quality production techniques that should ensure tighter tolerences and hence greater similarity. I've no idea if RS are any more OD than a Lader, but you can't pick your sailmaker at least.

Not knocking the Laser, but to claim it is the tightest OD in the world surely also needs some evidence to back it up. The advert, even though retracted (in part) does not inspire confidence and neither does unpublished results of measurements taken at Santander.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249

Exactly why the Laser builders haven't provided independent information about tolerances is an interesting question. There could also be some very interesting studies, such as double-blind testing of boats with different rakes and weights.


Making a bit of a rod for your own back if you publish that stuff though aren't you... By and large the majority seem to believe variances in the Laser are within reasonable bounds. If you spend a lot of money on a serious study and demonstrate that actually, no, the build tolerances need to be considerably tightened then you've made yourselves very unhappy boat builders.

And if you publish measurements and tolerances everyone will start measuring their boats, there will be rumours going round about which are the best numbers, and yo'll get hassle with people rejecting boats that are particularly far off the numbers.

I think the status quo probably suits most parties best. And as I said above, clear communication is scarcely an ILCA speciality...

There are also very few people who really want to commit to the work of a serious study, only anoraks like me. Case in point, the Solo fleet Captain at our club has refurbished an old Solo and is racing it against new boats to get an idea of relative speed, but when I suggested spending a day doing short races and helm swaps for a proper numerical trial of relative speed it was not greeted with enthusiasm by he sailors.

I understand the point about creating ammunition for people to chuck back at you, but I'm pretty confident that the result would show that at least some builders are making boats to very tight specs. If some builders aren't then IMHO they should get their act together in the long-term interest of all concerned. 

Rejection of certain boats could probably be solved by builders stating the tolerances in advance. I know that even under the current system, if I got a new boat that was well outside normal dimensions I'd be returning it with commentary on the Sale of Goods Act and what "fit for purpose" means in a boat sold as a strict one design. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Too many to list, but Topper, most of the RS boats, Musto skiff, 49er (which has plenty of debate around who makes the best, but without consensus), etc etc.

With respect, where is your evidence that the above are closer to one design than the Laser is?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:33pm
Too many to list, but Topper, most of the RS boats, Musto skiff, 49er (which has plenty of debate around who makes the best, but without consensus), etc etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:33pm
Topper. All injection moulded. Much more consistent than hand layup Lasers.

Edited by JimC - 06 Dec 14 at 10:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Emilio Castelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Peaky

The Laser is as close as it gets? Pull the other one...

Care to elaborate with an example of a boat you think is closer to one design than the Laser?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:08pm
The Laser is as close as it gets? Pull the other one...

The ad retraction didn't even deny the choosing North or Hyde. Surely if they're the same you wouldn't need a choice?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Emilio Castelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 6:44pm
FFS this news is so old everybody forgot?
I mean, we used to measure rake and weight in the 80s;  if you were halfway serious about sailing lasers you would pick your boat and spars, given a chance.
Ben Ainslie in his Laser book (20 yrs ago?), page 10 talks about measuring your rake, how to do it and the best range. He also says" newer boats vary very little".
Get over it; no two boats (or objects) can be perfectly identical. As far as sailing The Laser is still as close as it gets.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Vronny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 6:24pm
I was on a sailing holiday in Greece two or three years ago. The company had got a batch of a dozen or so new Lasers. One of the top Lasers sailors in Greece measured the mast rake on all of them and chose the best ones to go to the Greek laser squad and the rest were kept by the holiday company. I watched him choose the boats. He had a lower mast section which he put in each mast hole and measured from the top of it to the back of the boat. And I think he measured from the back of the mast to the stern corners too. 
If you have access to several lasers, you could easily do something similar to see if there are noticeable differences in lasers at your club.
There again, if your boat turns out to be different to other people's, would you know if it was different in a good way or a bad way?!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by Bruce



Am I the only one who's still worried about Laser mast rake and weight?
Seems like the<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> measuring of both at the 2014 worlds would indicate that some officials are concerned about it too.</span>
I don't know if I'm farting in the wind, or that I've been sailing a dud and I'm actually far better than I thought, or worse, that my boat is fast, and that the races I've won is more about slightly better boat speed. I always seem a little off the pace downwind. I always thought my technique needed improving.
This has got me worried.




I'm not worried at all, simply intrigued that the 9 times World Champion goes to the trouble and expense of shipping a boat all the way from Ourimba in New South Wales, when he could simply drive a couple of hours down the road to Milan and purchase a new boat from the Italian Laser dealer.


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