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A new class of dinghy?

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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A new class of dinghy?
    Posted: 24 Sep 18 at 7:38pm
Using biomimicry for designs, what is fastest surface swimming creature ? 
The new high speed train in Japan copied Kingfisher beak, as an example.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 12:57am
One thing I wonder about biomimicry is how relevant it is. Animals are limited to what can evolve from existing systems, so they can't evolve something as efficient as a wheel or propeller, for instance. There are (IIRC) no high-speed surface-swimming animals, and unless they are surface dwellers the vital aspect of wavemaking drag wouldn't come into it.

A couple of olde-worlde designers used animals as inspiration for their shapes, but those designs are a long way from being competitive these days.

Dan's post sounds spot on, of course. One other piece of info that would be nice to have is the tank testing that Rob Brown's sponsors paid for. It was just testing the effect of reverse rocker in an 18 Foot Skiff hull and it cost about as much as a complete J/24. Ahhh, the '80s!

PS - one thing that really sticks out to me, though, is that when you investigate the major classes and their origin it seems that most of them were designed around society, rather than hydrodynamics.

 


Edited by Chris 249 - 25 Sep 18 at 1:21am
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The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 7:15am
Their probably will never be serious money for sailing dinghy design anymore, just rehashes of existing dinghies, majority of existing sailors are happy with Enterprise type performance, perhaps it will change with upcoming generations.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 7:32am
Designed around society, I like that, Chris.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 8:28am
Going round in circles here, I think the point needs making as to what exactly we wish to define 'fast' as. Certainly ultimate speed over the water can't be it since for the most part we compete on restricted water and the sailing speed record is now well over 50 knots or is it 60 now I can't recall.

So what we want is efficiency. There's a bloody Solo down our lake, it's old, wooden, has a shagged out rig yet the moment the wind drops below a certain level it ghosts through the rest of us as if we're standing still. I need to understand that. I can guess, it's drag coefficient is less than ours, but why? Is it fore and aft rocker, or edge to edge, then there's the bloody Lasers on the sea in certain conditions, they also just pour past my new boat with its bigger sail and lighter weight helmed by guys no better or worse than I, why is that? Is it just water line length perfectly in tune with our wave length, or is it the low aspect rig being more efficient in certain circumstances than my high aspect fully battened rig, I want to know. I can guess, I think both my boats are too short, I've thought it all along, but will a T foil make enough difference?

All questions that continue to intrigue me, so for me it's relative speed with others, leading ultimately to sketches on paper for all manner of contrivances to overcome, the Solo when it's light, the Lasers when the waves are right and the bloody Contenders when the winds up, so if there's somebody that can write about or speak on the subject then I for one would be all ears..

Edited by iGRF - 25 Sep 18 at 8:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 8:30am
Originally posted by 423zero

Using biomimicry for designs, what is fastest surface swimming creature ? 
The new high speed train in Japan copied Kingfisher beak, as an example.

Interesting that,  I always assumed a kingfisher’s beak had evolved to be the best for fishing rather than aerodynamics  Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 8:52am
Frank is worth reading because he has given a lot of thought to what makes performance dinghies go fast based upon experience and testing but is short on the supporting theory.

If you are interested in the theory, in addition to Dan Holman’s recommendations, you could also look at;

Design of Sailing Yachts by Pierre Gutelle 

and

8th Chesapeake Symposium - Dinghy Design and the International Fourteen - Bob Ames and Paul Weiss.

Also worth considering the various Delft model series, which can give considerable insight of the significance of the prismatic coefficient to hull performance at different speeds.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 8:58am
The designer of new train was asked to stop 'BOOM' when leaving a tunnel at speed, caused by pressure wave from train speeding through tunnel, local authorities in Japan refused to allow new train to increase speed through their areas due to noise levels, it so happened he was a birdwatcher, he watched Kingfisher dive into water, from density of air to water and thought he would try beak shape on new train, which worked.
iGRF,
Norkolk Punts also sail like they have another power source when others are ghosting along, they used to be fastest sailing dinghy.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 9:01am
Originally posted by iGRF

for me it's relative speed with others
But if we all choose boats which are designed to be relatively more efficient than those around us two things will happen. Firstly we'll all get absolutely quicker, hitting the restricted water problems you mention in your post. Then secondly, you race on handicap, so all relative gains are calculated out before you get your result. 

So, unless you're designing for a development class, where you're in a design race for speed, then designing a faster 'one design class' isn't going to sell more boats. 

So it goes back to what Chris 249 says "designed around society". You want to want to design a boat that doesn't perform better, but is more attainable; financially and skill wise. So I think most of the clever engineering wouldn't really be going in to aerodynamics and hydrodynamics, but in creating a product which can be manufactured and transported.  


Edited by mozzy - 25 Sep 18 at 10:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 18 at 9:16am
nicely summed up Mozzy +1
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