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Fastest dinghy?

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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Nov 04 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Maybe I'm not most people then. Big breeze all day is what I want - not just for a few hours in the afternoon.



Ccording to sites like this AUS government one http://www.bom.gov.au/weather/nsw/amfs/Sea%20Breeze.shtml and this University one http://www.es.mq.edu.au/physgeog/research/theses/m_abs/mcgra th_abs1.pdf The Sydney sea breeze occurs every other day on average (more during the summer, less in winter. It kicks in about midday and lasts until 8pm or later, and 20-30knots is not uncommon. That would make for a pretty good day's sailing for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MerlinCrew1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 04 at 7:35pm

If ever controllable in a good breeze a hydro foiling International 14 would surely have a chance of being the fastest dingy.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jimmywalsh2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 04 at 10:04pm

These movies are from Wellington, and were shot after the race was cancelled due to it constantly gusting into the 30's.  The advantage of having several rigs is you can set them up for the conditions as can be seen here.  The 12 is fully powered up from 5-6 knots and can be sailed and raced in 30, if you have the right rig on.

http://www.skiff.org.nz/movies.htm

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Post Options Post Options   Quote AndrewP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 1:31am

The wind average & gust structure for the sail melbourne course region is shown on the following web site.

http://www.earthsci.unimelb.edu.au/~awatkins/fbeacon.html

With regards to the 12's being able to step down a rig. At the Sydney I14 nationals in 2000/2001 on Botany bay with a jetstream induced/boosted sea breeze of 30 + knots the full rig boats still beat the step down rig boats, mostly because they are faster down hill with the bigger kites and mainsails. The same jet stream induced the tornado and storm that passed over Nicorette during the Sydney - Hobart race that year.

Similarly in Perth the next year when the sea breeze was regularly 28 - 30 knots average the bigger rigs proved faster, in fact, this is when the fat head 14 mainsails first emerged.

Both of these venues have flat water that allows the skiffs to be sailed at full pace, whereas on Port Phillip in Sail melbourne the Seas are so steep that cartwheeling down hill becomes a real issue.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 3:08am
Andrew, who did the first fathead mains in 14s?

Don't 14s have less to gain from stepping down than 12s, because 14s have smaller big rigs?

Do you and Jim know of anyone who has sailed recent 14s and recent 12s? I think Tim Bartlett has sailed them both a fair bit but has he been on a modern 14 recently ?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote AndrewP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 3:29am

Chris

I14's with the international rules mast height being less than the original Australian 14 skiff rules have less to gain than the 12's by stepping down. Although even with the old mast height the step down was a risky move because the impact down hill if the breeze backed off at all was severe.

The first fat head I14 main was seen on a Canadian boat at the worlds in Beer in 2000 and was roundly and unfairly bagged by many including me at the time. The sailmaker was Fyfe, who I understand has a 12' skiff background from NZ.

Subsequent to that, Linsday Irwin and I developed it for the Japan I14 worlds, finding that it went better in the strong breezes of Perth as well. Dave Alexander Sails copied it from there and they now seem to be the norm. I have however seen reports on the Y& Y pages of Hyde sails developing a pin head main for 17 knots and above.

I dont know of anybody who has current experience on the latest generation 14's and 12's.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Starbuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 04 at 7:52pm

It would appear that there are 2 different approaches to very fast sailing. One way is to use a very light and efficient craft with a high power to weight ratio in moderate to strong winds. I would say YPE falls into this category, as do the 18's, 49ers, tornados etc.

The other not-so-subtle way would seem to be to try and hang on to a fairly low powered craft in utterly stupid amounts of wind. Just look at the size of Finian Maynard, hanging onto that sailboard rig. That must be a pretty low power to weight ratio when his body weight is taken into account, but he IS out there in 45 - 50 knots of wind!

So far, all the discussion in this thread seems to have been about 18's and tornados etc., which though undoubtedly capable of extremely high speeds, would presumably not make it to the other end of a 500m course in 50 knots of breeze.

I mentioned a 420 in 50knots of wind in an earlier post in this thread, and still stand by it. I think it would be possible to sail a conventional 420, maybe with some improved foils, down Finian's trench in 50 knots of wind if the angle was right, maybe 120 degrees, 2-sailing obviously. You'd have to have a 17 stone, 6'4" bloke crewing, and a 12-15 stone helm, but it'd get to the other end pretty rapid! I think if you were going to try and go down the "not-very-subtle" approach, then a 420 would be the boat to do it in, and I wonder just how fast one could go. Maybe not as fast as a small-rig 18 in 25-30 knots, who knows, but still pretty quick!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 04 at 10:32pm
I can assure you that when a dinghy gets to about 20Knots it becomes incredibly twitchy.  The foils are way to big, the rudder has to be handled with kid gloves which is not easy when its windy.  The pintles take a tremendous load since the slightest diviation from straight ahead puts a huge twisting load on them.  The truth of the matter is that a 420 may be the best boat to sail in 50Knots of wind but the hull is so different from the optimum shape for the speeds that could be achieved that something would surely break.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris Noble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 04 at 9:29pm
In 2002 i think, there was a topper traveller championship held at largs, the forecast was rough, but becasue it was the championship they were not going to call it off as easily, we were all told we didnt have to go out if we didnt feel up to the conditions, many didnt. As the start sequence neared 3 minutes the wether was already starting to become very very poor, with winds already in the upper 20 knots. However the race still went on and after the windward leg, a huge squal came through and the winds were recorded at a highest gust of 39 knots and averaging at around 35. Now you can imagine the site, it was carnage 40 odd boats mostly all upside down. Even one of the local "Calmac ferries was used to recover topper by lwoering both its stern and bow ramp and letting them wash in, totally destroying the rig, but the assistance was somewhat welcomed i think. Any way despite this 8 sailors still completed the race, once of which Campbel Davis (topper world champ) did not capsize once, the rest of us capsizing once or twice, the point being that you can sail even a topper in 35+ its just depends on your skill level and heavy weather experience, which in Scotland we get a good bit of. Yes ther were several bent rigs, i even bent my boom and upper section. but i still completed both laps. There no wind whatso ever the next day of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 04 at 10:29pm

I agree with redback, the 405 is an example of this. The rudder is taken off the Hobie 16 and therefore is far to big for the boat, it becomes very twitchy above 20 knots downwind (wind speed). Also as you go quicker the amount of force needed to move the rudder increases and you find that you hardly use it as heeel affects the boat far more with the increased boat speed.

I very much doubt a 420 could be taken out in that much breeze! the race versions are not stiff enough they only last a season of racing let alone 50 knots. the collage versions are to heavy to reach high speeds.

I imagine something like a I14 or 12 foot skiff on hydrofoils would easily be the fastest dinghy.

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