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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 May 18 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Fatboi

It is quite funny. There are arguments for and against all the classes. I have sailed a lot of different boats and have been in the top 5 at open/national level in many classes from GP14's, Solos, Int14's, RS400's and through to yachts but what I love about sailing and look for at events is close competition. 
If I am going blasting, then I would choose a int14 or maybe even an RS800 or D-One. Something I can go fast, send it around the place and that makes me smile, however the best events I have sailed in for the closeness of actual competition and boat on boat racing has been the slow one design boats -Solo, GP, Finn and RS200. Not much beats that, and I think that there needs to be a mix in the Olympics - tactical boat sailing as well as high performance thrills and spills showing the diversity of what you can do in our sport. 

Sounds good! Clap Clap Clap
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Oli View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by Chris 249

  


If we want to measure popularity by new boat sales of International classes, we see that syms are on top. Over a five year period to about 2016 or 17, the 470 outsold 49ers, 912 to 564. The 420 outsold 29ers, 1642 to 584 (not counting the US Club 420s). 

so asys are more than a quarter as popular in international classes according to those numbers, does that mean the the syms are dying of we have an overall fall in uptake year on year?

That's in the Olympic and Youth classes, where the situation is distorted because ISAF gives the same number of youth and Olympic medals to 9ers as to the 420s/470s, which seem to be more popular generally.

If you reckon the assys are more popular than the figures I can find indicate, then you are welcome to back up your claim by doing some research like I did.

you are coming at it from an informed position so i asked a question , i don't believe they are more popular based on the statistics you are using and probably wouldn't be using various metrics, i was interested in what could be interpreted from them though, its not always so black and white.

Originally posted by Chris 249

  

To be frank, these numbers worry me. The sport is not in good shape and the classes that some said were "the future of the sport" are being out-sold by old classes. We have been following a similar course since the "skiff craze" of the 1990s and it has not worked. We need some new thinking.


perhaps sailors are too tied up with nostalgia to move on?

Yes, but if we're going to look at psychological factors we have to be consistent and look at both sides. If we are going to start considering psychological factors like nostalgia as a reason why people are sticking to old boats, then we must logically also consider the psychological reasons why people may move to new ones, like being overly susceptible to hype, advertising and peer pressure, or wanting to feel superior to all the people who sail older classes. We can't prove whether decisions are being driven by nostalgia or by trying desperately to be hip, so perhaps we should ignore that area.

Perhaps instead we should simply respect our fellow sailors enough to think that they know what is fun for them? I've sailed with several guys who have won world titles in 18 Foot Skiffs and Junior Moths and moved to Lasers (or even a Mirror). Their decision to do that was not "tied up with nostalgia" - it was an intelligent decision in the circumstances, just as with the silver medallist who found that NS14s didn't work in Germany.

Thirdly, the apparent idea that nostalgia for dinghies is the problem ignores the fact that even where nostalgia for dinghies isn't a factor (like Sydney, where skiffs dominated for 90 years) the Skiffs have often been replaced by dinghies or have died away or dwindled. No matter whether there are Skiffs or dinghies, sailing is not doing well.

If it was only nostalgia that keeps people in slower boats, why would people sail RS800s instead of Formula 16s, A Class, F18s or Tornadoes?  If faster and newer craft are better, why would people sail foiler Moths or A Class cats instead of kitefoilers?  Obviously there is a lot more to it to it than nostalgia. 


obviously it was merely a question with many possibilities, nostalgia being one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 18 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

 
That's in the Olympic and Youth classes, where the situation is distorted because ISAF gives the same number of youth and Olympic medals to 9ers as to the 420s/470s, which seem to be more popular generally.

If you reckon the assys are more popular than the figures I can find indicate, then you are welcome to back up your claim by doing some research like I did.
ISAF has only given equal medals to 49ers and FX and 29ers and 420s for three years. It wasn't until 2012 that a pathway for women in skiffs was completed, and it wasn't until 2014 that both skiffs and 29ers were equally represented at youth worlds. 

Given that, it's amazing at how popular the 29er is, seeing more sailors compete in youth qualification and nationals in GBR NZL and AUS... it gets harder to compare for nations with lower attendances, but it seems FRA and GER favour the 420. USA is fairly even. It would be interesting to go through the youth selection events for each nation sending athletes the ISAF youth worlds and compare the two for the last three years. I still think the 29er would be behind, but i think it would be fairly close and I believe the gap to be narrowing. 

Either way, I think both the asymmetric and symmetric both can claim sufficient support to warrant representation at the games. 
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 18 at 1:02am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Chris....It would also seem that the skiffs don't represent grass-roots sailing as well as the 470 does.

That's the 'grass roots ' where a hull has a competitive life of 'several weekends'?


The issue was the general configuration, not the specific hull construction of one class of that configuration. As I understand from a repeat UK 470 medallist, the hulls last much better than is often claimed.
[/QUOTE


 it;s the 420 that  is  known for poor hull longetivity  due to lack of  cross bracing and bulkheads  rather than the 470 ... 

 it;s the 420 that  is  known for poor hull longetivity  due to lack of  cross bracing and bulkheads  rather than the 470 ... 
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 18 at 2:59am
Originally posted by Oli

Unless you're invested in the emotion of the competition it can be quite dull, crash and burn is perhaps the best way to "advertise" our sport, get the hook and then bring in the reality of it, a highlight reel is always more interesting....imho.

Trouble is that there is an entire internet of crash and burn extreme stuff from other sports and activities, much of it far better produced, more impressive or downright zany than anything sailing can put out.

Showing non-sailors moth videos (even the few decent ones) usually elicits an intial 'wow' and then then the conversation moves on... It's much the same when a friend shows me his motorbiking videos - looks impressive, but it appears so far away from anything I could do that it's pretty abstract and doesn't make me want to rush out and get a bike.

Your 'being invested' point is key. The TV debate for sailing is always cart before the horse. Sports that have lots of spectators probably do so because lots of people participate (or at least identify with them in the case of motorsport) and are therefore invested in the outcome. So really it's the elite that 'need' the grassroots, not the other way round. More sailors would ultimately mean higher viewing figures for the olympics.

Arguably less is more with the events. The multiple classes dilutes the interest to the point of 'meh'. I'd support just two medals - Laser and Radial. Simple, cheap, familiar to most and only a small number of athletes for the spectators to follow and remember. I reckon the radial medal race from 2012 was one of the most compelling I've seen, yet to feel the same about the 49er races in any Olympics (though 2008 was amusing).
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 18 at 7:57am
Originally posted by zippyRN

 it;s the 420 that  is  known for poor hull longetivity  due to lack of  cross bracing and bulkheads  rather than the 470 ...

The 470s used to be appalling back in the late 70s early 80s, but a hell of a lot has been learned both in construction techniques and materials since then. Whilst the internal layout rules are still probably a bit limiting as regards good structural design (but not nearly as bad as the Merlin for example) my understanding is that the 470s are way way better than they used to be.
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 18 at 8:15am
Originally posted by DiscoBall

Originally posted by Oli

Unless you're invested in the emotion of the competition it can be quite dull, crash and burn is perhaps the best way to "advertise" our sport, get the hook and then bring in the reality of it, a highlight reel is always more interesting....imho.

Trouble is that there is an entire internet of crash and burn extreme stuff from other sports and activities, much of it far better produced, more impressive or downright zany than anything sailing can put out.

Showing non-sailors moth videos (even the few decent ones) usually elicits an intial 'wow' and then then the conversation moves on... It's much the same when a friend shows me his motorbiking videos - looks impressive, but it appears so far away from anything I could do that it's pretty abstract and doesn't make me want to rush out and get a bike.

Your 'being invested' point is key. The TV debate for sailing is always cart before the horse. Sports that have lots of spectators probably do so because lots of people participate (or at least identify with them in the case of motorsport) and are therefore invested in the outcome. So really it's the elite that 'need' the grassroots, not the other way round. More sailors would ultimately mean higher viewing figures for the olympics.

Arguably less is more with the events. The multiple classes dilutes the interest to the point of 'meh'. I'd support just two medals - Laser and Radial. Simple, cheap, familiar to most and only a small number of athletes for the spectators to follow and remember. I reckon the radial medal race from 2012 was one of the most compelling I've seen, yet to feel the same about the 49er races in any Olympics (though 2008 was amusing).





There are indeed lots of ways to skin this cat, none of them will please everyone, but i feel its time we shook it up for a cycle or two and really disturb the apple cart, we can always go change our minds, and if at that point its too late then perhaps it was too late anyway.  Definition of insanity anyone.....

Less can be more that's for certain, i refer back to my single event format of a large foiling cat or similar fleet racing, but lasers work for much the same effect and outcome.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 18 at 12:13pm
Oli, my apologies for getting the inferences in your earlier post wrong.

I'd echo DiscoBall's note about the fact that crash and burn doesn't turn people on. Windsurfing went down that route and the sport crashed and burned itself. The biggest manufacturer is now literally re-introducing a new version of the original board to try to basically re-start the whole sport. Secondly, the people who actually researched the topic found that crash and burn turns people off. How on earth can we just ignore expensive studies done at significant expense by significant forces within our sport?

Arguably we have been not just upsetting the applecart but crashing and burning it for years. For over two decades we have been introducing fast new classes with little grass roots support (Lechner, 49er, spinnaker Tornado, Elliott 6, 49erFX, RSX, Nacra, Soling match racing).  Outside of the Olympics we have been trying the crash and burn pro circuit idea since 1987, without widespread success.It hasn't worked. Ratings are still poor and participation is dropping. 

We can't say we haven't been trying to push extreme crash and burn sailing, because we have been doing it for over a generation. To keep on trying what we've been doing for 20+ years without success would be insane.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 18 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Chris 249

 
That's in the Olympic and Youth classes, where the situation is distorted because ISAF gives the same number of youth and Olympic medals to 9ers as to the 420s/470s, which seem to be more popular generally.

If you reckon the assys are more popular than the figures I can find indicate, then you are welcome to back up your claim by doing some research like I did.
ISAF has only given equal medals to 49ers and FX and 29ers and 420s for three years. It wasn't until 2012 that a pathway for women in skiffs was completed, and it wasn't until 2014 that both skiffs and 29ers were equally represented at youth worlds. 

Given that, it's amazing at how popular the 29er is, seeing more sailors compete in youth qualification and nationals in GBR NZL and AUS... it gets harder to compare for nations with lower attendances, but it seems FRA and GER favour the 420. USA is fairly even. It would be interesting to go through the youth selection events for each nation sending athletes the ISAF youth worlds and compare the two for the last three years. I still think the 29er would be behind, but i think it would be fairly close and I believe the gap to be narrowing. 

Either way, I think both the asymmetric and symmetric both can claim sufficient support to warrant representation at the games. 

Completely agree that both assy and sym should be in the Games. Given my personal background I'm not anti-assy or anti-skiff. My issue is with those who want the syms out  and say that assys and skiffs etc are the future.

The fact that the girls' skiff is new could work either way - it could be a short term lift in new boat sales or a long term trend. Time will tell. I invite you to research the figures, and to try to work out how much is driven by real demand and how much is driven by people who (wrongly IMHO) believe the "skiffs are the future" BS.
 
PS - re the US; if you count the Club 420 and Int 420 together, they are several times as popular as the 29er. A country that finds the Int 420 too delicate is highly unlikely to ever embrace a skiff fully. I've discussed the issue with Julian and with two of the former leaders in the US industry, who both sail craft far faster and more extreme than any skiff. Both had backgrounds of great success in other classes and both tried to switch the US onto skiffs. 

Both failed. Who are we to assume they didn't know their own market?


Edited by Chris 249 - 24 May 18 at 12:30pm
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 18 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Oli, my apologies for getting the inferences in your earlier post wrong.

I'd echo DiscoBall's note about the fact that crash and burn doesn't turn people on. Windsurfing went down that route and the sport crashed and burned itself. The biggest manufacturer is now literally re-introducing a new version of the original board to try to basically re-start the whole sport. Secondly, the people who actually researched the topic found that crash and burn turns people off. How on earth can we just ignore expensive studies done at significant expense by significant forces within our sport?

Arguably we have been not just upsetting the applecart but crashing and burning it for years. For over two decades we have been introducing fast new classes with little grass roots support (Lechner, 49er, spinnaker Tornado, Elliott 6, 49erFX, RSX, Nacra, Soling match racing).  Outside of the Olympics we have been trying the crash and burn pro circuit idea since 1987, without widespread success.It hasn't worked. Ratings are still poor and participation is dropping. 

We can't say we haven't been trying to push extreme crash and burn sailing, because we have been doing it for over a generation. To keep on trying what we've been doing for 20+ years without success would be insane.



not a problem Chris249, perhaps i could've been clearer.

fair enough but i would say we haven't gone far enough, i wouldn't mind hitting the reset button for the Olympics, as i said before personally i don't think it even touches actual grassroots sailing so why worry about it.

Please don't get me wrong im not suggesting all sailing has to be crash and burn, i love the fact that it isn't, i have been fortunate enough to sail classics, slow tactical, fast cat and skiffs and stuff in-between, inshore and offshore, and it all has merit in our sport, but rather than put lipstick on the (olympic) sow and all be put off lets fry some bacon and see what happens.

But perhaps we should heed the advice from those studies, perhaps we should go the other way as DiscoBall suggest with lasers or something....
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