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Phils Rig School continued...

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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Phils Rig School continued...
    Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 7:49am
So a fairing then.
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 8:34am
Kind of except the 'fairing' is the bit doing the 'what the mast needs to
do' bit, leaving the carrier rod for want of a better description, to be
variable in its bend characteristics according to what sort of sail the boat
requires. i.e full batten fat head, soft batten pin head,. What you're
effectivley achieving is mast bend without having to actually bend the
mast.

If it ever became standard, the expensive bit could be mass produced
which would bring down costs and the variable bit is relatively cheap to
build anyway, there are lots of carbon tube rod builders. (They make
fishing rods & poles)

Couldn't see it ever being adopted by older classes though.

But for modern boats with ever increasing load demands, especially boats
like those 49ers, whose mast bend curves are all over the place I couldn't
help noticing whilst down at Weymouth Speed Week, it might provide the
stability they need in one axis whilst bending to their hearts content in
the other, regardless of what the wind decides to do.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 8:51am
I like the idea of this but the inner mast would be wrapped rpund by the outer mast with the sail protruding through a wide slot. However as the inner mast bent off it would foul the outer mast. This would mean increasing the size of the outer to accomadate it with too much windage high up. Perhaps a skeletal or space frame mast although more tubes mean more windage. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote grimupnorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 9:03am
. . . which is what I was thinking. If the inner and outer
are both full length, and the clearance between them is
narrow, then in effect the inner takes up the stiffness of
the outer. Which kind of loses the benefit of 'variable
bendiness' that we were talking about.
Which in turn makes me think that I've misunderstood the
idea altogether.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 9:14am
Perhaps we should re visit gunter rigs?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 9:20am
The inner is restrained from bending in any other direction than fore and
aft as a long bow. That is how you control the sail twist, compress the
mast by down haul and the sail twist off, release the tension and the sail
leech tightens. (It's how luff curve seem shaping works). But with the stiff
outer you wouldn't have the twist off sideways at least not to the same
degree, nor the pressure from the kite to distort or deviate away from
what you designed the sail to do in the first place.

There are other issues, like how much room would be needed within the
sleeve, where you attach the boom and how, but other than for holding it
up it should do away with the need for all those other variables we (well I)
struggle with like uppers, lowers, rake, mast tension, I mean does
anybody really know the definitive answer to all those, and it changes so
much from boat to boat and isn't really necessary.
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Phil eltringham View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 9:25am

How precisely do you plan on transfering the load between the two tubes? I'm strugling to picture exactly what you mean if I'm honest, but unless the two are bonded together you will not get any load transfered between them until they touch, and then you will have to find a very cleaver way of them not chafing through one another over time.  (I can't quite remember but I think there is something similar explored in 'High Performace Sailing', one of Frank's NS14 experements - I'll look it up tonight)

Really could do with some pictures to help with this one.  It sounds like you are trying to have a one size fits all outer and just swap the middle for different boats (am I right?).  If so, why? Surely, you of all people would want something that was designed from the outset to be bespoke foor your type of boat?

As for your comment on 49er rigs, I take it you mean the old ones with the glass-fibre top sections, and for you to say they 'bend curves are all over the place' is something that I would take some exception to.  But it is an argument we have had before and there is no need to repeat, I will agree to disagree with you there. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 9:43am
The 49er fleet were training, I wasn't actually trying to be disparaging, I
asked one of the squad guys and he agreed, they were. I've no idea what
they were made of I just questioned, why, when they were all close
combat O.D. training did they have such a wide variety of mast curves.
Wish I'd taken a photo, it was very noticeable. He didn't think it made a
lot of difference to them.

The wear could be an issue, power transmission; boom clamp, mast foot.
possible inclusion of periodic clamps to pre determine a given bend
rather than rely on one the fly adjustment, but still leave say top third.

Head and foot of the mast would have to be in tracks, power transfered
there of course.

Why? precisely to get some sort of standardisation whilst retaining
flexibility of performance.

Er this is unlikely to happen - just brainstorming - hyperthetically
speaking, a what if I had the chance scenario..

Do you remember that speed sail thing I built with the luff curve adjusted
by straps?

Edited by G.R.F.
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Phil eltringham View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 9:43am

Originally posted by G.R.F.

The inner is restrained from bending in any other direction than fore and
aft as a long bow. That is how you control the sail twist, compress the
mast by down haul and the sail twist off, release the tension and the sail
leech tightens. (It's how luff curve seem shaping works). But with the stiff
outer you wouldn't have the twist off sideways at least not to the same
degree, nor the pressure from the kite to distort or deviate away from
what you designed the sail to do in the first place.

There are other issues, like how much room would be needed within the
sleeve, where you attach the boom and how, but other than for holding it
up it should do away with the need for all those other variables we (well I)
struggle with like uppers, lowers, rake, mast tension, I mean does
anybody really know the definitive answer to all those, and it changes so
much from boat to boat and isn't really necessary.

It sounds a bit like you have missed the point of rigging.  Why go to the effort of designing two masts when you can have only one and then use a few bits of string (wire) to stiffen it up externally.  The further the support is from the centre of the structure the more efficient it is, so it can ber lighter and thinner, to create an inner mast tube which "is restrained from bending in any other direction than fore and aft" is in the real world impossible, the heeling force from the rig is far higher than the driving force (upwind at least) so short of using a solid scaffolding bar how do you plan on stopping it bend to leeward? 

I don't think tuning a rig is difficult, I know exactly what I am looking for when I do it, and no on my boat where I have shrouds, caps, forstay, heel position, and chocking to play with, as well as spreader lengths and deflection I have it set up with one position for winds of 0-25knots (I rake the mast back a touch beyond that, but rarely use it).  What you are trying to achieve is a neutral helm, can you sail th eboat upright, upwind, in a straight line without having to steer? all you are trying to do is balance the rig and foils.  Chapter and verse has been written on how to go about doing this already, by far smarter people that I, the basic principles are the same on all boats, the implementation changes due to sail plan and deck layout, but it is just variations on a theme. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 09 at 9:47am
The point?

Standardisation - speed up production lead times - reduce sail build costs -
reduce the variables -make life easier for newcomers.

Have you not noticed how much windsurfers pay and get for their buck
compared to dinghy sailors, and there is one more margin generally.

Edited by G.R.F.
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