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Adam MR 1137 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adam MR 1137 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tactical 'Pop' Quiz
    Posted: 16 Mar 09 at 3:35pm

As a river and pond sailor mainly, I struggle as soon as I have a decent amount of tide to try and figure out. So this disscussion was a little lost on me. I was reading in the hope that it would suddenly all make sense.

Although not quite as epihany like as I need, the above post did help me understand why GRF was choosing the course he was due to the tidal effects. So thanks a lot for explaining, it has helped me understand a little bit why every one else is so far ahead at the windward mark when I race on the sea!

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 09 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

I'm confused. The article recommends
sailing up the left side of the beat (which among other things means
avoiding the stbd layline). GRF says he'd start on starboard tack (i.re.
going left) - isn't that the same thing in principle -you're both avoiding
going right, which with a necessarily flexible strategy in shifting winds is
the most you can set in stone, isn't it?


Mountains, molehills?



Er when are we going for that race again?

Not sure if I should write this, dont want to go giving a river man clues


The bit I took issue with was approaching the windward mark with
effectively the tide on your weather bow, by coming in from the left late.

Yes I'd go left, but it would be middle and left with as much time spent on
starboard as 'tempting' knocks would allow. but my final run would be on
starboard having understood enough for the tide to lift me the last bit.

Not banging in from the left with the risk of whisking by, tacking and
overstanding even further, if I wasn't ahead further putting myself at the
risk of early rounders being carried down on top of me or at the very least
adding wind shadow to the already eroded windspeed the tide was
dealing..

Clear enough now?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mark Jardine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 09 at 10:48am
I remember an argument on Scuttlebutt a few years ago about the lee-bow effect. There were some 'scientist' types on their claiming it didn't exist - wow did that turn into an argument and a half!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 09 at 10:14am

I'm confused. The article recommends sailing up the left side of the beat (which among other things means avoiding the stbd layline). GRF says he'd start on starboard tack (i.re. going left) - isn't that the same thing in principle -you're both avoiding going right, which with a necessarily flexible strategy in shifting winds is the most you can set in stone, isn't it?

Mountains, molehills?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote simsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 09 at 9:00pm
Nice story. I don't suppose you'll name the coach? I can understand if you don't.

I think the original statement is very generalised, and yes, the wording is very poor. However to 'claim' one particular way to go is the right way, is very misleading without taking a lot of other factors into account - which they clearly haven't.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 09 at 7:37pm
Had an argument once about tidal lee bow, with an Olympic coach, he
didn't get it either and very rudely and abrubtly halted the lecture I'd
been giving his squad on the subject of tidal courses, startlines and the
various strategies best taken to deal with them.

Many year later I had the good fortune to spot him 'coaching' the then
Olympic squad as to the best strategy to approach a particular course and
incoming tidal scenario over a long distance race. His opinion as to the
correct approach to the tide and a wind bend over the cliffs and how and
when to deal with it clearly sketched on a white board for all to see.

My view was exactly opposite to his advice. I wasn't actually going to
enter as I'd only been there to watch, but it was to tempting to resist, so I
did, went for the 'other' cliffs and sailed the four mile beat with the
incoming tide full on my lee bow.

When I got to the windward mark, he and the rest of the Olympic Gravy
Trainers were there in the support boat, their 'squad' yet to arrive, barely
visible as they, followed by the rest of the fleet, were sailing up tide on
the wrong side of the beat about ten minutes behind tide now squarely
on their weather bows.

Leaving them to face the most delectable rant from a 48 yr old retiree on
the merits of volunteers driving all the way to Weymouth at their own
expense to offer tidal lectures to young Olympic aspirants and how best
they should be given the chance to listen next time and how much longer
did they think it would be until they caught up.

Funnily enough I've not been invited back.

So yes, tidal lee bow is often of more overiding import than some
windshifts particularly in sub planing circumstances given the increased
boat/board speed and better VMG achieved when it's favorable.

Edited by G.R.F.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 09 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by Inland sea

Good stuff their thanks ... but the lee bow bit is a Braithwate for me (whooosh over me heed ) Could you clarify please?


Someone will be along in a moment to claim it doesn't exist.
-_
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Inland sea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 09 at 10:09am
Good stuff their thanks ... but the lee bow bit is a Braithwate for me (whooosh over me heed ) Could you clarify please?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 09 at 5:38pm

Oh God, what am I going to do now???? Admittedly it's not the most complex strategy problem, but GRF's right on the money. I have to agree with him again!

As a result I can never hold my head up in decent company again, and will have to do the decent thing...

(Footsteps off, muffled gunshot)

No FD? No Comment!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 09 at 3:45pm
Well all the strategy I would have planned for a beat in circumstances
described would be an early lee bow off the line (fundamental imv) on
Starboard from the Port end, then if lucky enough to meet a significant
knock bang over early for the requisite time making sure not to go too down
tide and certainly nowhere near the starboard wind based layline, then
another final leebow up to the mark coming from shallow right.

Under no circumstance would I be on either wing if it was shifting around.





Edited by G.R.F.
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