Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
![]() |
Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
![]() |
Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
![]() |
List classes of boat for sale |
Are weight equalisaiton systems safe? |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1234> |
Author | |
mpl720 ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 15 Nov 04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 23 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 09 Dec 04 at 8:07pm |
"I always thought the Blase looked right but was put off because the original rig was criticised so much - it just needs to lose a few kilos and I might be tempted to try one" Matt - You are right about the rig - And the current Blaze weights about 74kg with centreboard in the hull and with wings and all lines and fittings. Rule minimum is 72kg (The hulls come out of the mould at around 56kg). Without wings it could be 7-10 kg lighter possibly but we reckon they are worth every gram when the wind gets up ! This is far from being as light as it could be built but its also far from being a heavyweight. The 'new' rig is also relatively light, a by-product of being 'semi soft' now - ie less battens and a switch to carbon booms about 3-4 years ago. ---- Now remind me, cos I have forgotten, how much exactly does a Contender weigh ? Seriously though just try a Blaze out - as I've said before we're biased so make your own mind. Cheers - Mike Lyons PS - Chris - I'm glad you love your 400 and I'm more than happy to borrow one from time to time ....
|
|
![]() |
|
Matt Jackson ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Sep 04 Location: Darlington Online Status: Offline Posts: 962 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
It sounds like the sail has been totally redesigned for useability. I always find with fully battened sails they are only good for performance in medium to light windspeeds as in the very light stuff they tend to support such a deep draught it's hard to keep the airflow attached and they give very little feedback in terms of sail movement. In very strong winds it's harder to depower because there is less stretch in the cloth (unless using traditional cloth like the Tasar) and they are always producing drive because they sail is forced into a wing shape - ever tried holding on to an RS400 by the forestay in any wind? it just wants to sail off on it's own all the time. I always thought the Blase looked right but was put off because the original rig was criticised so much - it just needs to lose a few kilos and I might be tempted to try one. Edited by Matt Jackson |
|
Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36
|
|
![]() |
|
Rob.e ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Oct 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 545 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Not much to add to that lot except to say that I wish the 300 had been given a centreboard- if you sail in a narrow creek a dagger is a pain, tho the tilting dagger in the 3 is slightly better. If you can sail a 300 well they can do ok against anything- I've overtaken good 400's on a two sail reach, and an average Fireball 3 sail reaching with crew on the wire. The Contender is superb when the wind gets up, but not happy in the light stuff. The Blaze looks a good compromise-I've never sailed one, but they are increasing in numbers both in sales and opens, so they must be doing it right. We shared a champ with them for a while....
|
|
![]() |
|
ChrisJ ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 337 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Much of the club has been trying to pursuade Mike to sail one for years.... but no luck so far :-( |
|
![]() |
|
BlueMouse ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 07 Dec 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
"The Moths are a different case in that its sail is relatively smaller and was always higher aspect plus the mast is softer so can get away with a hard sail more easily - and they tend to sacrifice everything for more power !" Not quite - actually you don't need that much power to drive the narrow hull, but what you do need from a moth rig is low drag. This gives higher top speed. Most moths now have camber induced, fully battened sails (like a windsurfer rig with shrouds). These give a flatter, low drag sail shape and are significantly quicker upwind than a standard mast track/bolt rope arrangement in F3 or above. Also much easier to control in strong winds than a standard fully battened sail (as mentioned in a previous post). Takes longer to rig, but worth the effort!
|
|
![]() |
|
Matt Jackson ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Sep 04 Location: Darlington Online Status: Offline Posts: 962 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
... and those with any sense moved swiftly on to something less painful It's really hard and scary (but quite fast) sailing by the lee in a Contender because the shrouds are a long way back. If you don't let the kicker off enough you risk a gybe (and a headache coz the boom it only an inch off the tiller) but too much and you induce a death roll - which is bad for boatspeed. There wouldn't be room for a dagger in a Contender if we wanted one and the C'board is good in that it can be raked further back as the wind rises to keep the boat balanced as the centre of effort and trapezing position moves back. I thought you were a RS400 man. Matt Aston is yer man for open meeting stuff, his email address is on the class website http://www.sailingsource.com/contender/gbr/ do you have much of a following oop north? I'm trying to raise the Contenders profile up here and tagging onto your circuit would be a low risk way of doing it - just an ideal. PM or email me direct if you're interested or have any wisdom to impart. |
|
Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36
|
|
![]() |
|
mpl720 ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 15 Nov 04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 23 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
As Matt says previously - the Blaze is slower than a Contender upwind when the winds up and/but relatively faster offwind. We are often faster than Contenders upwind in lighter airs but once the trapeze helps its the Contender that pulls away of course. In fact we've shared quite a few meetings with Contenders in recent years - no conscious intention of ignoring the comparison ! We have not dis-similar rigs now and also both have centreboards which is another 'traditional' feature of the 'modern' Blaze. Daggers are arguably more efficient to the purist - BUT it's so nice to round the windward mark, fully extended on the wing and raise by control line ! It also makes downwind sailing by the lee (a la Cockerill) much easier with a clear cockpit and lateral resistance moved back down the boat. I'm sure the Contender benefits as well, especially when its windy, from its centreboard but maybe not as much as they seldom seem to attempt sailing by the lee. I also think that the reason they do so well against the RS600 in higher winds is by virtue of their 'soft' sail and centreboard which makes their handling arguably easier. As for shroads preventing efficient running - we still have plenty of roach in our sail and simply let the kicker off. The sail is high aspect as well and goes as far forward as you would want. The other point about using the kicker Matt alludes to - Yes a powerful kicker and highly adjustable stayed mast certainly extends the upper wind range considerably as you really can make the sail 'blade off' at the top. Lastly - Blaze relative to the Laser - certainly faster in most conditions, sometimes much faster, but the Laser has its moments against all the classes mentioned and we've all sailed them at one time or another. Cheers - Mike Lyons PS - Contenders etc - Do you want to share any Opens in 2005 ?
|
|
![]() |
|
Matt Jackson ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Sep 04 Location: Darlington Online Status: Offline Posts: 962 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The Contender has been mentioned a few times but with no response so I'll try my best. I've never sailed directly aginst a Blaze but shared an open with them a few years ago, the blaze seemed a fair bit slower upwind (F3-4) but quicker on a reach. The Phantom is really over canvassed so in any more than F3-4 you can usually hear the groans whilst going upwind. The Contender is horribly slow compared to anything in less than a F3 and it's fairly common (for me) to be racing lasers! The EPS was really quick on a run because there's no shrouds (just lowers) but seemed to stick a bit in a chop because of the lack of freeboard (and rocker?). The thing that surprises people about the Contender is that we still use a 'soft' sail and a bendy mast and this gives us a huge sailable wind range, because you can pull the sail into any shape you like, but looks a bit dated. If you bang on enough kicker virtually anything is sailable upwind - off the wind may be a different matter tho |
|
Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36
|
|
![]() |
|
mpl720 ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 15 Nov 04 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 23 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: Blaze - We tried softer and tapered battens with the old sail but it was just tinkering and did not make much difference. Unlike a Tasar main where the rig is still fairly 'soft' the 10.4 sail on the Blaze was quite 'hard' and we could not get it right hence the switch. The M7 we use is fairly stiff at the top but being stayed we have a great range of setups possible to suit all. The Moths are a different case in that its sail is relatively smaller and was always higher aspect plus the mast is softer so can get away with a hard sail more easily - and they tend to sacrifice everything for more power !. The fully battened approach is likely to be theoretically and in practice very efficient - in certain wind strengths possibly. However when it blows you do not need 'maximum' power anyway and the key is depowering upwind in particular. With a fair bit more sail the Blaze was never short of power but it was very hard to apply in F4+ ,now, even when slightly reduced in size, the drive can be controlled more effectively. We would judge the Blaze to be very competitive on handicap with 300's and Phantoms in more than 9kn of wind, and absolutely faster than Phantoms though slower than 300's. When it blows over 15kn+ its very much faster than Phantoms and close to a 300, partly because most club sailors find the 300 'challenging' especially in the sort of waves 15kn will produce on open water. In winds less than 6kn I'd put my money on a well sailed Phantom or 300 against a Blaze much of the time - but most of us prefer it when there's some wind surely !! I'm sure some don't like the Blaze - but ask them to tell you if/when they last tried one - Draw your own conclusions if you get a 'vague' answer ! Most of us in the Blaze have come from Lasers, 300's, Phantom's or whatever. They are all great boats for some people and revel in some conditions. Make your mind up what your preferred style of sailing is and simply sail the boat that best suits it. 'My' boat may not be for you ... so ? Cheers - Mike Lyons
|
|
![]() |
|
Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Interesting info, everyone, thanks.
I'd read about the new Blaze rig and the reasoning behind it, but I'm still a bit puzzled about the problem with the old sail. Boats like the Moths do pretty well with full battens, and even in the old days of dacron the full battens seemed better than "soft" sails. Of course, gear has changed a lot and I know that battens are no longer as necessary with modern gear. Even something as rigid as a windsurfer sail of many years ago (like a Mistral sail) can be sailed just off the leach, with the luff feathering. I'm not disputing the effect and I think I understand it, but I'm just interested in more info. Did the whole sail flog when it was eased too far off, flopping back and forth with the battens? Were the Blaze's battens very rigid? Was the old sail quite deep? Was the mast a bit too stiff to depower by twisting off the head? Out of interest, in what conditions do the Blaze and RS 300 perform best (or worst) against Contenders and Lasers? How does it do against a Phantom? Some guys don't like the Blaze, but I can understand the appeal of a wide, powerful and stable singlehander with wings rather than a trap. It's a pity one can't get the lines, it could be an interesting comparison to the Contender in hull shape; both are fairly flat and stable AFAIK. Rob, do you know where the 300s in Australia might be?? |
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1234> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |