New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: What does mast rake do?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

What does mast rake do?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What does mast rake do?
    Posted: 11 May 07 at 5:17am

Originally posted by Ian99

A good comparison is to look at the differences in wing rake on a Hercules or a 747 in comparison to a fighter jet or Concorde.

Actually the objective is completely different. Aircraft flying near the speed of sound use swept wings in order get the wing and engines working behind the shock wave generated by the nose cone. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swept_wing for a longer explanation. This is not relevant to sailboat design just yet. 

Back to Top
redback View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: Tunbridge Wells
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1502
Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 11:48pm
There is some confusion about flat and full sails in light winds.  Generally the fuller the sail the more power it generates - hence we start flattening it when we get overpowered.  But at really low wind speeds (a drifter) the full sail that you would use in light winds stalls too easily and in such light winds this is difficult to detect.  Hence the rule is:- full sails for light winds but in extremely light winds a flatter sail is better.  Personally I think the bar is better.
Back to Top
Matt Jackson View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 04
Location: Darlington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 962
Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by NickA

I noticed in the heavy weather of the recent BNMT that all the contenders had let their kickers off somewhat in the gusty 20knot wind.  Tried it, it seemed to help.  I guess it lets the top of the sail blade off depowering the top of the sail and reducing heeling force - but surely it makes the sail fuller too.

The only reason they would be letting the kicker off is to stop the boom burying as they see-saw around in the gusts or to get under the boom and stop sticking in irons in a tack. The Contender get pretty uncomfortable to sail with little kicker in a breeze as the sheet loads increase significantly and when you sheet out in a gust you dump all the power at once (not good).

Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36
Back to Top
Garry View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 536
Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by giraffe

Garry,

A basic understanding of vectors demonstrate that the faster you go the higher you point.  so why should easing the sheet a little stop me pointing, except in the short term whilst I accelerate?

[/QUOTE

My understanding of what Stefan was saying is easing the sheet opened the slot to do that he must be talking jib.  Since this thread is about depowering by having an open slot caused by raking the mast, to get the same effect either

My understanding of what Stefan was saying is easing the sheet opened the slot to do that he must be talking jib.  Since this thread is about depowering by having an open slot caused by raking the mast, to get the same effect either your jib is lifting at the luff or you've had to bear away, probably a considerable amount.  Yes you would accelerate,if you bore away but as soon as you sheeted in again and came up you would be overpowered and... Also a small ease of the jib greatly increases the entry angle, everything else staying the same.  Of course moving the jib lead aft is a different matter and also opens the slot by creating twist in the jib.

And less kicker more cunningham means you loose control of the top third of the sail, not get more, as a small ease on the mainsheet becomes a big ease of the top batten. 



Edited by Garry
Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk
Back to Top
49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1991
Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 9:04pm

Originally posted by timeintheboat

Upwind in hiking weather it seems a good thing. In the medium stuff life still feels better balanced up wind with some rake, but in the light stuff I haven't a clue what's going on. What is supposed to be happening to pointing with mast rake? Is it purely a de-powering thing?

These are on both single handers and double handers with adjustable mast rake around the course. I just reach for the rake control automatically around the leeward mark.

Maintain some curvature in the sails in the light stuff, don't have bags in the sails but at the same time, don't have them flat. There are two schools of thought with light wind settings, but flat sails to reduce drag theory also kills all lift too and is very slow. Maintaining some curvature maintains a profile optimum for generating lift. High Performance Sailing by Bethwaite and Sail Performance by C A Marchaj, both cover the theory in great depth, Sail Performance is more specific. Best to read a book about it instead of trying to understand bits and pieces from a forum if you are really interested. We don't adjust mast rake on the 49er as we have a fixed forestay but in the light stuff we don't bend the mast extensively to move the centre of effort aft as is the effect with raking as it is a depowering method, probably why Alex was saying keep the mast straight initially. If you bear in mind what Ian was saying about wings on the 747 and Concorde, it's a good analogy of sail shape. The 747 wing shape with more curvature is designed that way to generate maximum lift to carry a high payload whereas concorde's wings are very flat with the aim to minimalise drag. The 747 shape will help on light days to maximise lift at lower speed and on the windier days when you have plenty of lift the aim is to flatten sails off to reduce drag.

Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
Helensburgh S.C
Boat Insurance from Noble Marine

Back to Top
Ian99 View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 07 Apr 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 138
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by giraffe

A basic understanding of vectors demonstrate that the faster you go the higher you point.  so why should easing the sheet a little stop me pointing, except in the short term whilst I accelerate?



Except that the aerodynamic drag of the rig, hull, crew etc have an approximately equal and opposite effect (See page 168 of Bethwaite's "High Performance Sailing") .... which is why you then have to flatten the sails and rake the rig back to reduce the drag. It also reduces the amount of lift you'll get off the sails, but as you're probably overpowered by that point that's also a good thing.
A good comparison is to look at the differences in wing rake on a Hercules or a 747 in comparison to a fighter jet or Concorde.
Back to Top
giraffe View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 10 May 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 148
Post Options Post Options   Quote giraffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Garry

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Easing the sheet has the same effect with a lot less trouble. So there has to be more to it than that.

If you ease the sheet you won't point.

Garry,

A basic understanding of vectors demonstrate that the faster you go the higher you point.  so why should easing the sheet a little stop me pointing, except in the short term whilst I accelerate?

The practice of increasing mast rake in more wind is about giving the wind a different aerofoil from that used at lower wind speeds.

Rake should not be confused with bend. 

Bladed sails, caused typically by lots of cunningham and less kicker when windy are fast around the course.  This may actually be due to making a lightweight boat easier to sail as the top of the sail is controlled better rather than actually increasing straight line speed, but they are fast around the course .

 

Back to Top
Garry View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 536
Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Easing the sheet has the same effect with a lot less trouble. So there has to be more to it than that.

If you ease the sheet you won't point.

Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk
Back to Top
BigFatStan View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 31 Jan 06
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 78
Post Options Post Options   Quote BigFatStan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 12:43pm
Rake also moves the CoE of the rig back - I'm sure this is a significant factor, especially if you sail with less board down (on a pivoting board type of boat) when it gets windy.
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 07 at 11:02am

Originally posted by FreshScum

Increasing mast rake opens the slot on most boats as the head of the jib moves aft relative to the rest of the sail.

Easing the sheet has the same effect with a lot less trouble. So there has to be more to it than that.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy